Lack of Power Steering when cold

Post by **Jon** » 20 Dec 2004, 19:17

The BX TD.
It keeps trying to catch me out by not having power steering (usually when I least suspect it) This happens when the car or indeed weather is cold, during the first mile or so of driving.
No other hydraulic isssue to report. LHM was changed for Total LHM plus and filters cleaned in September.
I'm guessing at a weak(ish)pump. I can't see its a Flow valve problem because surely it would give PAS problems at any time, this problem is only in the cold.
Anyone got any ideas? What with the coolant problem and this, the BX is driving me crazy lately.

NiSk · Post by **NiSk** » 20 Dec 2004, 20:37

Had the same problem with my '93 XM TD12, a clean out of the tank and filters plus Hydraincage in the hydraulic system for 5000 km cured it completely. it's the early type of XM with the FDV so almost identical to the BX - except when the power steering doesn't work you can hardly budge it at all - really alarmimg, but the front end is so much heavier than the BX . .
//NiSk

dan.2cv · Post by **dan.2cv** » 20 Dec 2004, 20:39

I'm no expert, but your guesses make sense as the steering is the only thing worked directly by pump pressure as all the other hydraulic services run from regulated pressure which can only (theoretically) build up.
Is there any way you can get the pump output tested?
If you let the car idle for a while do you momentarily get steering before it fails again? This would give a weak pump time to build up a bit of pressure in the steering circuit. However I can't see how any of this would only occur in the cold.
Maybe your rack is full of muck which changes viscosity as the LHM warms it up and gets it all going? Maybe have another look at your filters and see if they are prematurely dirty again?
when you change the fluid, Haynes reccommend you turn the s/wheel a few times with pressure released to return most of the fluid to the resevoir, but even if you didn't I can't see how it would have this effect.
Have you checked for a slipping belt?
Just a few ideas, I hope I haven't just stated the plainly obvious!!
all the best. Dan

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 20 Dec 2004, 23:19

Jon
Had a weak pump on my Td when I bought it - 4 years later the Andyspares recon one seems fine, and all works nicely.
I had defective FDV's as well but they never affected the steering and thinking about it I can't recall anyone claiming on here to have cured steering problems by attention to the FDV, but the other way round - yes.
Steering needs a high volume of oil suspension and brakes do not and have the accumulator as well! Incidentally my FDV problems were lack of pressure for suspension which wouldn't rise properly and also the light would come on. Turning the wheel increased the pressure and would get it to rise.
Jeremy

davethewheel · Post by **davethewheel** » 20 Dec 2004, 23:57

i had exactly the same problem on my xantia, turned out to be the fluid changed it cleaned the filters and all was well, it was only when cold and sometimes it seemed ok, i would start my journey with all of the first turns being left handers and it would seem ok then when i went to turn right it would suddenly be almost impossible to turn, it would then gradually get better as the car warmed up.

jonathan_dyane · Post by **jonathan_dyane** » 21 Dec 2004, 00:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jon

The BX TD.
It keeps trying to catch me out by not having power steering (usually when I least suspect it) This happens when the car or indeed weather is cold, during the first mile or so of driving.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You're not having much luck... I'm still BX-less until it warms up slightly so retorquing isn't a disaster.
I had a very similar problem, and decided to change the LHM for hydraincage. After refilling the pump would *not* prime, even with a big funnel of hydraincage as a head. S/h pump and all was well. Pump or dirty LHM? I dunno, but it was OK after that.

Post by **Jon** » 21 Dec 2004, 02:09

Thank you all for your comments.
I'm going to go for the pump. Logic says that if the flow valve has blocked filters, then the PAs problem usually occurs in the same direction, at any time, we can also rule out the PAS ram as well, its unlikely that this would "seize" just when the car/weather is cold.
When I got this BX the spheres were OK, but the accumulator was flat as **** (OK a Pancake) and the pump was working overtime. To help the pump I fitted an XM frt centre sphere (70bar) instead of an accumulator (62bar). The hydraulics have been very good since, although I notice that the pump is clearly working very hard as I can hear it dragging when the regulator opens.
I'll try a "known good" pump or maybe a Chris Jacobs recon, and see how we go.
Now, about that coolant problem....[:(!] [V]

wonderd · Post by **wonderd** » 21 Dec 2004, 11:04

where can I find all those filters you guys are talking about???

mikeg · Post by **mikeg** » 21 Dec 2004, 12:15

Hey Jon, I've still got my Wifes 1.7 dtr turbo estate in gleaming, see your face in it, silver, for sale. New glowplugs sorted out the starting problem and the 1st & reverse selection has been cured. Just needs an LHM change & filter clean now. So if you ever get fed up with yours, you know where to find me.
Best of luck,
Mike.

NiSk · Post by **NiSk** » 21 Dec 2004, 12:37

The LHM filters are located in the LHM tank. If you pull out the bit in the middle, with all the hoses going to it, there are two very fine mesh filters. The first is obvious, it usually falls off as you extract the center section. The second is concealed inside a long tube that reaches the bottom of the tank - it fits with a bayonet attachment inside the tube.
//NiSk

uhn113x · Post by **uhn113x** » 21 Dec 2004, 13:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NiSk

The LHM filters are located in the LHM tank. If you pull out the bit in the middle, with all the hoses going to it, there are two very fine mesh filters. The first is obvious, it usually falls off as you extract the center section. The second is concealed inside a long tube that reaches the bottom of the tank - it fits with a bayonet attachment inside the tube.
//NiSk
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
There are a couple of tiny ones in the two inlets from the regulator to the FDV, as well, that affect steering if blocked.

NiSk · Post by **NiSk** » 21 Dec 2004, 20:51

Ah yes, if you have a vehicle with only one HP output and an FDV = CX, BX, Early XM, Early Xantia.
//NiSk

wonderd · Post by **wonderd** » 21 Dec 2004, 22:40

thanks, i never realized that there are filters there to be cleaned, maybe it's part of the solution to all my problems (fast sinking, steering hard when engine idle...)
I guess i need to replace my LHM and clean those filters.
I have this problem though, i can't get a hold of hidraflush, is there anything i can use instead??

czenda · Post by **czenda** » 21 Dec 2004, 23:59

The "hydraflush" is called "Hydraurincage" (with the pigtail-like French accent under "c"). I am sure your nearest Citroen dealer/garage will have it on stock. I is sold in 5 l red plastic containers, its color is yellow/orenge-ish and the 5 l container is about 25 EURO where I live. It may be that Total makes the fluid as well, but if it is so, it is more expensive than that purchased directly from Cit dealer. I would not recommend using anything else. Some members of our local forum complained that using Hydraurincage caused leaks in their system, but this was not my case. On contrary, this stuff fixed a lot of nuisances I had to cope with after I bought the (rather neglected) BX.

Kered · Post by **Kered** » 22 Dec 2004, 00:30

Why not support GSF, the promoters of this forum. Look at the top of this page and click on "home". Enter number N98106 and there is your Hydraflush in 5L for £13.50 + VAT
Derek