Now *MY* headgasket has gone!

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jonathan_dyane
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Now *MY* headgasket has gone!

Post by jonathan_dyane »

Well, this was fairly irritating. En-route to Liverpool on Friday, I was cruising along the M62 in heavy traffic doing 50-55. The car seemed to be running fine.
Suddenly, the amber overheat light started flickering, so I immediately pulled onto the hard shoulder. Leaving the engine running I opened the bonnet. The fans weren't on, but by the time I had engaged the bonnet prop they had started. The warning lamp went out.
I waited a few minutes, and the fans showed no sign of stopping. I spotted that every 30 seconds or so a cloud of steam was coming out of the exhaust, and when I tried to loosen the cap on the expansion cap water started to shoot out. I decided to try to limp the 2 miles to the next services.
I sat at 45 in 5th, but I only got a mile before the heater went cold. I stopped the engine immediately and coasted to the hard shoulder. No warning lights had come on this time. When I took the cap off the expansion tank there was very little water.
I let the car cool for 20 minutes, and refilled the car with water, using a bottle device stuck in the header and the only bleed screw on the radiator. When I started the engine there were *lots* of bubbles. I put the cap on loosely, hoping it would vent the pressure.
Setting off again (I felt extremely vunerable on the hard shoulder, it was dark and drizzly) I got as far as the services slip road before the heater went cold again. I again turned off the engine and managed to coast most of the rest of the way into the services. I then called the breakdown people [V]
So, now I've got that to fix - I just hope the head is OK. It was interesting that there was no signs of overheating or any waterloss/airlocks in the period leading up to the failure. I have the car's service history, which is fairly comprehensive. The car does not seem to have given head gasket trouble before, but 50,000 miles ago in '98 (I think) the car suffered a snapped timing belt on holiday in France. It was then repaired at the Citroen main-dealer (in France) and 'apparently' received a new head. It will be interesting to see what I find when I take the head off.
I intend to start taking her to bits this afternoon. The haynes book of lies seems to suggest the manifolds and turbo are removed complete with the head. Surely this can't be right?
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Post by RichardW »

Bad luck, Jonathan....
BX TD head gasket. Yuk, Yuk, Yuk......
Took me about 4 weeks to change the one on mine - just couldn't drag myself out there to get on with it!
Right, specifics. Yes you *can* remove the head complete with manifolds and turbo, but it's 'kin heavy and awkward, and there's only *just* enough room to get the turbo out between the block and bulkhead. However, removing the manifolds requires that you get the allen screw in the centre of the inlet manifold undone - this is what Haynes recommends you cut the allen key down for. There was no way I would have got this bolt out with the head on the car, as I ended up getting it out with a pair of stilsons on the bench (the manifolds have to come off eventually as the inlet is in the way of the head bolts - you need a good selection of 'wobble bar' extensions to undo the headbolts with the manifolds in place. I recommend going for this bolt early - if you get it, then proceed with taking the manifolds off - if it won't come then you know you're in for the slog!
When refitting the head, use a piece of cardboard on top of the block, get the head in position, then lift it up and get your lovely assistant to slide the headgasket in. I have a wrecked headgasket hanging on the wall in my garage to remind me of this fact.....
At a tangent: How's the clutch? If you're planning on keeping the car a while, I would be tempted to pull the engine out, do the clutch and headgasket, and change the 3 braided hoses down the back of the block, and the octopus all in one go. The engine in/out will probably not take longer than the head gasket alone, and the other jobs will be pieces of cake compared to doing them with the engine in situ.
Good luck..... you're going to need it!
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Post by NiSk »

Well Jonathan,
What are you complaining about? You've got two aircooled Citroëns - never had any head gasket problems with them, have you? As Volkswagen found out when they "just added water" . . .
//NiSk
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Post by jonathan_dyane »

Hi Richard,
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by RichardW</i>

Bad luck, Jonathan....
BX TD head gasket. Yuk, Yuk, Yuk......
Good luck..... you're going to need it!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Oh joy.
Well, I guess I'll start by putting the front end on ramps and 'having a go' at getting the manifolds off; and if this fails at least I know it should fit out of the top...
'Kin heavy I know all about that; I remember rebuilding a CX Diesel engine. It was a lovely spring day, and I was working outside with the engine on a thick ply sheet on top of a trailer. It began to rain, and I solo lifted the block (no head or sump, but with crank and pistons) and carried it inside. Putting it down on the pallet on the floor was the worst, back never has been quite the same...
Pulling the whole lump? Hmm, it does make sense, particularly as the car has done 170K and I have no record of the clutch being done, and I do have a hoist, *but* I could do without the expense of a clutch right now, and I did the octopus in May. I shall give this some consideration.
Thankyou for your advice; I hope I manage to get it done in less than four weeks!
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Post by jonathan_dyane »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by NiSk</i>

Well Jonathan,
What are you complaining about? You've got two aircooled Citroëns - never had any head gasket problems with them, have you? As Volkswagen found out when they "just added water" . . .
//NiSk
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
NiSk, I can confirm that indeed I have never had headgasket problems on the above cars[;)]
I love air cooling, but IMHO anything much heavier than a 2cv is too thirsty without a diesel engine. I wish Citroen had designed a flat-four air-cooled diesel for the GS...
Volkswagen, please do not swear; I have just had the misfortune to have to refurbish the engine in a 'modernish' 1.9D Transporter. Awful engine fitmant and a dreadful engine, both to work on and in design terms; I was most unimpressed.
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Post by NiSk »

Now then! A flat four turbo diesel - sounds like a jolly good idea. I wonder if there are any such devices available on the market - Subaru always use flat 4's but it don't recall a diesel. I seem to remember seeing a small Duetz flat four air-cooled industrial diesel some while ago. . .
//NiSk
Jon

Post by Jon »

Bad luck Jonathan.
The last time I did one I managed to get the engine moved forward a bit (as the o/s mounting has to come off anyway) and jambed engine slightly forward with a block of wood between engine block and bulkhead. This gave the clearance required to lift the head off complete with turbo and manifold attached, 2 of us lifted the head off quite easily. I seem to remember nightmares with access to the intercooler to turbo pipe retaining clip, oh and don't forget to undo the turbo oil feed pipe!
When the head is off, then remove the manifold/turbo complete, and remove the head bolts that won't come out otherwise. I think I then refitted the new headbolts into the head, refitted the manifold, then cable tied bolts to it to keep them out of the way when the head was dropped down again.
This job is not pleasent.
BTW I think that you should be checking the radiator carefully in case its not been doing its job, and also be fitting a new thermostat. It was only when I fitted my temp gauge recently that I saw that the temp was reaching almost 100 degrees before the stat opened, and temp dropped to 85. NOT good for this particular engine :-(
Lastly, if you can afford it, buy a head set, that way you get the new inlet/exhaust combined gasket, rocker cover gasket etc etc.
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Post by Dave Bamber »

I'd be tempted to remove the engine and box too. I did the 205 recently, and got the whole lot out in 2 hours. Ok, its a non turbo and has no LHM stuff to remove, but it gives you a pointer. It would also make re-fitting the timing belt easier too.
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Post by oilyspanner »

Head off with manifolds must be the way to go, as Jon says dont forget the turbo oil lines (I have a habit of crossthreading these) when refitting fit the BOTTOM end first) and try not to lose the little filter, skim and refit, on the bright side at least the vehicle wasnt driven to s smoking stop.
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Post by RichardW »

Oh I forgot (blanked out?) the turbo inlet hose. It is looped under the heater return hose, so needs to be disconnected before you pull the head - only Haynes forgot to tell you this. I pulled it off on the heater hose as I was pulling the head off. Whether you can undo the jubilee clip depends on the orientation - you can just about do it up from underneath with a long screwdriver. Getting the pipe back on the turbo is interesting though - I had my wife wiggling from above while I directed operations from underneath [;)]
Jon's block of wood tip is a good one - I thought of this too, but not until AFTER I had struggled to get the head back on....
Enjoy [8)]
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Post by PeterMann »

I had a very similar incident with my 2.0i Xantia, which triggered a small head gasket leak. Figured that the head had not got so hot as to stress-relieve the casting, so I backed off the head bolts and re-torqued one by one. No gasket leak after that.
I suspect that head gasket leaks are so common in modern Citroens because they no longer re-torque the head bolts after the first 10,000 miles ; a shortcut that I reckon is a false economy.
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Post by madasafish »

"I suspect that head gasket leaks are so common in modern Citroens because they no longer re-torque the head bolts after the first 10,000 miles ; a shortcut that I reckon is a false economy."
No other second hand car has as many hg problems.. No-one reorques head bolts. modern assembly machinery does it all. The problem is with Citroen design and engineering. Marginal cooling systems and gaskets which have little lattitude to cope with stress...
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Post by jonathan_dyane »

Hello all, thanks for all the excellent advice.
Well, I manages to make a start today, after first sorting out my mothers Xantia (which was slowly expiring due to a blocked fuel filter) and shifting a VW Transporter with seized brakes out of the carport...
It is indeed a pill of a job. Have spent ages lying under the thing, and there is *no way* that evil centre bolt will come out, so I'll have to pull the lot. Oh well. At least I've got a good start now, so I might just have it pulled off tomorrow.
One thing though, how do you remove the 'modern type' thermostat housing, with the attatched fuel filter? On the old type you could get all the bolts out without dismantling anything, but on this I can't see how to access the third (lowest) retaining bolt?
Thanks in advance,
Jon

Post by Jon »

You have to remove the fuel filter, and undo the 13mm bolt that secures the plastic filter housing. Then remove the 3 10mm bolts that secure the plastic thermo housing. You then get access. To be honest you can just leave the whole lot on there and just undo the top hose ftom the thermo housing, it can all come off with the head and be removed later if required.
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Post by TomH »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by madasafish</i>

"I suspect that head gasket leaks are so common in modern Citroens because they no longer re-torque the head bolts after the first 10,000 miles ; a shortcut that I reckon is a false economy."
No other second hand car has as many hg problems.. No-one reorques head bolts. modern assembly machinery does it all. The problem is with Citroen design and engineering. Marginal cooling systems and gaskets which have little lattitude to cope with stress...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I dunno... Rover K series have quite a bad reputation!!
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