Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

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Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

Post by odedn » 03 Oct 2016, 21:56

Hi everyone

While replacing balljoints, I found out that the upper suspention arm was very unsteady. Certainly something was wrong !! I need to dismantle the arm and look for faults.
I looked for information and found that the upper arm is equiped with rare bearings.
Does anyone knows what can be wrong ? what could cause the arm to be so "shaky" ?
At this stage I struggle with pulling out the pivot nut that holds the arm. 
Any recommendation will be appriciated.
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Re: Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

Post by Mandrake » 03 Oct 2016, 22:34

From memory the top suspension arm has two taper needle roller bearings, very much like the rear suspension arms on later Citroen models. If the bearings are stuffed you would get front/rear play in the arm under load - is that what you see ?
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Re: Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

Post by Stonehopper » 04 Oct 2016, 07:35

Play in the upper arm pivot is controlled by shimming the taper roller bearings. Whilst it is necessary to remove the nyloc nut, it may be possible to remove the dust cover and re-shim one end. However, my own GS had extensive wear on the dust cover itself reducing it to a circle of metal giving no protection to the bearing, and I was able to move the upper wheel arm a full 1/16" fore and aft at the arm end. I was lucky enough to find a second hand wheel arm complete, but only really needed to replace the dust cover and re-shim.

The bolt should come free with a sharp clout with a soft faced hammer. Awkward place to wield a hammer though.

PS: The actual bearing description is missing completely from the manuals on the GS/A by Autodata and Haynes - they mention shimming, but no description of the bearing type. It is described in the factory manual in section G-412-1, manual 008102 Mechanical Components. Though in my own copy that exact page is absent! But looking at the removed arm and bearing, my above description is true.
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Re: Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

Post by xantia_v6 » 04 Oct 2016, 07:42

If your bearings are clean and not rusty internally, then you should be OK by adjusting (shimming) them. It is likely that generic replacement bearings are available if you know the type number (which is likely to be etched on the bearings you remove).
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Re: Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

Post by odedn » 04 Oct 2016, 08:52

Good morning, 

Thank you all for your replies.  It is nice to find a site where I can discuss technical issues. 
I understand that re-shimming is very imporant for replacing the wheel arm correctly.

What could be wrong with the shim ?

The arm is so shaky so i am afraid it might need more then a new shim. 

Regarding the bearing,  you are right ;  no literature found or discussions. Probably most of repairs used a replacement part. I have found at GSA parts manuel the dimension of the bearing 20×42×??. The width is not clear scanned. It look like 16.6 or 18.6. It is not generic bearing what so ever. GSA wheel bearing in general are not generic.
I will update later on.
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Re: Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

Post by xantia_v6 » 04 Oct 2016, 09:59

Perhaps it is generic, see for example: http://www.skf.com/uk/products/bearings ... metricUnit
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Re: Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

Post by Stonehopper » 04 Oct 2016, 14:03

First question (and I do not know the answer) : is the GS the same as the GSA in this matter?

If it is like mine was, then the end cap may have been worn away to nothing, possibly by abrasion with the arm grinding away the cap material. This may have been caused by faulty fitting at some time in the past.

Here is how the end cap should look:

Image
The grease seal is within the cap, and seals against the collar. The collar fits over the end of the central hollow tube, through which the centre fixing bolt passes. Any shims should be between the collar and the bearing face. If there are none, then some will need to be obtained to eliminate any play once the pivot bolt has been torqued to 45lb ft.

One end of mine looked like this:

Image

The whole centre of the end cap has been worn completely away.

The seal number is: 301P 448543A SKF

Image

The bearing number: 441652 SKF

Image

Image

The wear on the outer race seen here is perfectly acceptable.

Image
Last edited by Stonehopper on 04 Oct 2016, 14:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

Post by Mandrake » 04 Oct 2016, 14:14

There were two varieties of lower suspension arm on the GS/GSA - some had a pressed steel arm and others had a solid cast arm similar to the top arm in construction and appearance, but as far as I can remember the top arms are all the same through the years. Don't quote me on it though, it's been a while! :-D
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Re: Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

Post by odedn » 04 Oct 2016, 17:19

Thanks again for the answers and photos. It was very helpful. Couldnt ask for more!

I will share photos as soon as I figure out how to upload photos...
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Re: Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

Post by myglaren » 04 Oct 2016, 17:21

There is a guide to uploading photo's here.
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Re: Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

Post by macplaxton » 06 Oct 2016, 01:17

odedn wrote:Regarding the bearing,  you are right ;  no literature found or discussions. Probably most of repairs used a replacement part. I have found at GSA parts manuel the dimension of the bearing 20×42×??. The width is not clear scanned. It look like 16.6 or 18.6. It is not generic bearing what so ever. GSA wheel bearing in general are not generic.


It's clear on my scanned copy :) 16.5mm

Image
002186 GSA parts 75-86 Upper suspension arm 001 by macplaxton, on Flickr

It looks unique, but as can be seen, that SKF unit (20 x 42 x 15) can replace it and a 1.5mm spacer both ends used to pack things out before final shimming. Unless of course 16.5mm wrong/made up in which case ignore that last sentence... Part (3) GX 20 253 001 A "RING WITH CUP", might be cup + seal, is down as 20 x 53.5 x 12.5 (again measure for yourself). The shims (no 5.) go up from 1.71, 1.88, 2.05, 2.22, 2.39 (+0.17mm increments). Anything more than a tiny preload is bad news, just take up all the play and no more.

Searching gives me this:
Image
for part number 26 203 449

http://www.gs-gsa-ig.de/gsa/gsa.einzelteilliste.2.htm#6

2 per side.

GSA Service Manual pages:
Image
811-11(GSA) Upper suspension arm 002 by macplaxton, on Flickr

59 to 65 Nm (43.5 to 48 lb(f)ft for those that still haven't metricated :P )

Image
811-1(GSA) Upper suspension arm 003 by macplaxton, on Flickr

Good luck and please let us know your measurements for future reference.
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Re: Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

Post by Stonehopper » 06 Oct 2016, 09:22

Excellent! Thanks Mac.
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Re: Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

Post by odedn » 06 Oct 2016, 19:33

Thank you Mac for your detailed reply.
I will update you all.
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Re: Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

Post by odedn » 05 Apr 2017, 20:08

Hi again,

Sorry for my late response.

I replaced both sides with new tapper bearings.

The size is as recomended above 20×42×15 and not as appear in the manual. 

It is a common size by all manufactures.

The original seal is can not be found any longer and probably produced for citroen only. it should be reuse.

The seal is placed on the outer diameter of the inner ring bearing (if i am not wrong 31mm exactly) and it is different by any manufacturer. 

after examine a lot, there is only one that exactly the same with all diameters and the seal can be fitted without any need for unneccery modification.

And the winner is NTN.

Well known Japanies manufacture.

Hope it will assist some of the readers...even one will make me happy :roll:
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Re: Gsa - front suspention upper arm "shaky"

Post by odedn » 05 Jun 2017, 21:18

20161019_134723_zpskqrxjsla.jpg
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