GS timing belts / tensioners

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macplaxton
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GS timing belts / tensioners

Post by macplaxton » 03 Jun 2015, 02:38

Homework time before the ordering.

citronut wrote:if you require new belts and tensioners
i have just purchased a set of belts for i think £36 squid from AJAYS motor factors,
and although Chris Salter supplied the tensioners this time, they are still available from GSF for around£13 quid each, as opposed to ( i have heard ) someone that sells them for i think around £36 each


1) What make were the belts?

I see on the Dayco web catalogue that there is a blank entry as far as GS belts go. However, they do have a listing for the Axel which I presume is the same belts? Doing some further digging, it seems that the Gates 5012 reference must be a pair (I think the 5012 ref is a set made up of a 5010 [93] and a 5011 [105]), as they are priced at €24.85 on mister-auto.ie (£19.28 on the .co.uk site). The Dayco 94220 belt is priced at €11.97 (£11.82 - funny old pricing/exchange rate there!). Now I've a feeling that the Dayco Axel listing might be half-empty as 12 quid doesn't seem to be a pair (unless dirt cheap, unlikely), but the pair constitutes 2 different length belts doesn't it? A 105 tooth x 19mm and some catalogues refer to the shorty being a 93 tooth x 19mm. The corresponding 93 tooth Dayco 94174 is dearer at €14.45 (yet still only £11.82). It not the first and not the last time I've seen some very shonky information in aftermarket catalogues which are often repeated verbatim in other aftermarket catalogues...

2) What lengths are the belts? (93 + 105 - with the 1015 exception of course which is 2 teeth less a side (91 + 103))

Tensioners (previous discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=37912)

BOLK - BOL-RX12200 - £7.70 / € 7.42
SKF - VKM 12200 - £9.24 / €12.84
INA - 531 0005 10 - £11.54 / €10.54

SKF full timing belt kit (2 belts, 2 tensioners) €78.28 / £52.33

Well if my homework is correct, I can get two Dayco belts and two INA tensioners all for €55.45 delivered. (Standard delivery to me is €7.95 - UK is free over £39, but those same parts would come to £46.72, which at current exchange rates works out dearer at €64.28)

Your thoughts / confirmation on any of the above sought before I take the plunge please.
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Re: GS timing belts / tensioners

Post by sandybx » 12 Jun 2015, 21:46

Dear Macs,
if I remember correctly :idea: renewing your cambelts are pretty straight forward. front end off ( lamps, grille, landing panel and sump guard ) fan off and assoiciated tin wear. Time the engine up on the crank sprocket and also the both cam sprockets.
The new cambelts used to come with white painted line marks to correspond with the crank sprocket and both cam sprockets.
What you need to do then is " count " the individual " teeth " from the marks on the right hand side cam sprocket all the way to the mark on the crank sprocket. And then repeat that procedure for the left hand side cambelt. Then write down the number of teeth counted for the right hand cambelt and then write down the number of teeth counted for the left hand cambelt.
To make doubly sure;- what I would do would be to time up the engine for removing the cambelts and then paint your own white stripes ( tipex is ok for this ) paint the marks on the crank sprocket and also on both cam sprockets first, BEFORE counting the teeth and then write those numbers down.
It is best practice to paint your own marks on the old cambels, firstlly to get used to counting the correct amount of teeth and also just incase your new belts don, t come with any paint marks :!: Then you can be sure that when you put the old cambelts up against your new ones that you can be confident of ensuring that all the timing marks tally with each other as you transfer the painted timing marks over from your old belts onto your new belts :) :wink:
I hope this helps :wink:
Vince,
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Re: GS timing belts / tensioners

Post by macplaxton » 12 Jun 2015, 22:09

Thank you Vince. I shall find a stationery supply cupboard to raid!

Many moons I did miscount a number of links in a motorcycle timing chain, despite checking several times. Engine only managed 80-odd miles before dropping a valve. :oops:
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Re: GS timing belts / tensioners

Post by 2cy » 11 Dec 2015, 23:36

Two questions gents..

1. Brands - might I enquire as to which are better ? You've listed a lot there and I don't know one from another.

2. Number of teeth when timing ? I presume that the number of teeth on each belt is measured straight rather than around the pre-tensioner pully. If so.., is it not easier and therefore safer then to measure these. However many there are between 'A' and 'B' marks should not vary too much, even between an old and the new belt ?

Thanks, Peter
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Re: GS timing belts / tensioners

Post by Stonehopper » 13 Dec 2015, 20:48

I don't know if there are any differences between brands, I wouldn't be too surprised to find they are all alike, though some may prefer one over another much as some prefer tyre brands.

Teeth:

The teeth MUST be counted over the tensioners and NOT straight.

On G12 engines (G10 are different)

Generally when speaking of left and right of a car it is done as if you are sitting in the car looking forward, for this example I will use left and right as from the front looking back at it. So left is the fuel pump side, right the dizzy side.

Looking at the car from the front, the left hand side (fuel pump side) with the notch in the crank pinion at the top most point (lining up with the crankcase joint), and the fuel pump side cam pinion with its notch at the lowest point, there needs to be 43 teeth between those two notches as counted over the tensioner.

Looking at the car from the front, the right hand side (distributor side) with the notch on the crank pinion still at the top most point, distributor side cam pinion also at the top most point, there needs to be 33 teeth counted between those notches as counted as the belt runs beneath the tensioner.

The oil pump pinion should have its notch (it may have yellow paint on it, and it may have none) should be at the bottom most point.

It may be that the distributor side cam sits astride a tooth on the belt. Choose the direction of camshaft rotation that gives optimum positioning of the distributor adjusting bolts in their annular slots such that sufficient is available to gain the correct timing of the engine. I had this quandary when changing my belts and went half a tooth the wrong way. It ran OK, but I had insufficient movement of the dizzy to gain sufficient advance. It also ran a little 'lumpy' on tickover.

I would love to have been able to post an image, but this website doesn't talk Photobucket.
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Re: GS timing belts / tensioners

Post by sandybx » 13 Dec 2015, 21:22

Dear Derek :)
Many thanks for stepping in on this one Derek :) :wink: Answered perfectly :) =D>
Vince :)
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1988 SAAB classic 900 i with 3 spoke Ronals in rose quartz with 69,000 miles.

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Re: GS timing belts / tensioners

Post by xantia_v6 » 13 Dec 2015, 22:14

Stonehopper wrote:I would love to have been able to post an image, but this website doesn't talk Photobucket.


I am not a photobucket user, so can't immediately check myself, but have you tried the instructions at: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=35470 ?
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Re: GS timing belts / tensioners

Post by Stonehopper » 13 Dec 2015, 23:13

Yes I have. In all the options available for copying and pasting in image forms and direct links - html or img, full sized or thumbnail, either Photobucket comes up - "error, this photo does not exist", or this appears after the attempt to paste in the reply -


Image


The only way I can get my images accessible by other forum members is through dropbox, and supplying the dropbox link in text form.

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Fixed it for you Derek - don't know why it won't work direct, but I converted the photobucket URL to a tinyurl and up it came. Richard
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Re: GS timing belts / tensioners

Post by xantia_v6 » 14 Dec 2015, 01:51

Stonehopper wrote:Yes I have. In all the options available for copying and pasting in image forms and direct links - html or img, full sized or thumbnail, either Photobucket comes up - "error, this photo does not exist", or this appears after the attempt to paste in the reply -

Image

The only way I can get my images accessible by other forum members is through dropbox, and supplying the dropbox link in text form.

Derek

Fixed it for you Derek - don't know why it won't work direct, but I converted the photobucket URL to a tinyurl and up it came. Richard


I have adjusted the board settings to overcome the problem, the automatic spelling checker was subtly changing the url such that photobucket did not recognise if as one of its own.
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Re: GS timing belts / tensioners

Post by RichardW » 14 Dec 2015, 13:15

Umlaut over the e? I wondered about that....
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Re: GS timing belts / tensioners

Post by 2cy » 14 Dec 2015, 15:46

That's great Gents..

I can now see why counting the teeth is a little less than straightforward. Derek's description & simple illustration makes things much clearer. Big Thank you. Seems like I'll be counting & also measuring the teeth flat on the bench to check the markings are correct before I fit, and then double checking after fitting !! although it's weird that the manufacturer's marks are not accepted verbatim.!? According to Continental's website the teeth are pitched at 9.525 mm.

I've now managed to buy a copy of Peter Russek's Glovebox Series - Repair Guide on the Ami Super (..an English publication c.1975, about a French car, recently bought from Germany !). It confirms Mac's assertion that for Citroen's GS 1015cc (M10 motor) the belts have 91 and 103 teeth respectively. The belts width are 19mm.

And for assembly : the M10 engine's teeth count between crankshaft and cam pinion marks is 42 for the fuel pump side, and 32 teeth for the distributor side of the engine. The teeth count between crankshaft and oil pump pinion marks is 25 teeth. 42 x 9.525 = 400 mm. 32 x 9.525 = 305 mm. 25 x 9.525 = 238 mm

Manufacturer's shelf life for the belts commonly appear to be 5 years. Peter Russek's maintenance schedule tells me that the belts should be changed every 24,000 miles (40,000 km) for normal operating conditions (Lesser for stop-start, town use, dusty roads, hard driving, etc.).

For a compact car, I'll assume 24,000 miles to equate to three of four years of use. Adding this to a new (five year old) belt - I conclude the belts should be changed every 8 or 9 years, or 24,000 miles, whichever is the sooner.

In the meantime, I'll be buying me own car's cam and alternator belts from a trustworthy company that has a frequent turnover of newly manufactured stock. I'll also ask them to supply the latest dates for my order. [-o<

I now know not to buy new old stock rubber components. [-X

Again my sincere thanks. Peter
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Re: GS timing belts / tensioners

Post by Stonehopper » 14 Dec 2015, 23:03

Wow! Shock - Horror! Imagery fixed - many thanks.

Note:

G10 engines (1015cc) different numbers to be counted:
D to A 32 teeth
A to C (shortest route) 25 teeth

Data from Citroen Manual 008102 GS

My caveat is that I have never worked on a 1015cc engine! Double check with marks from the old belts transposed to the new.
Also, this manual makes no reference to an M 10 engine. Is this a different beast?
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Re: GS timing belts / tensioners

Post by 2cy » 15 Dec 2015, 21:06

"Note:
G10 engines (1015cc) different numbers to be counted:
D to A 32 teeth
A to C (shortest route) 25 teeth"

If I may be so impertinent as to correct..

G10 engines (1015cc) different numbers to be counted (with reference to the excellent diagram) :
D to A = 42 teeth
A to B = 32 teeth
A to C (shortest route) = 25 teeth

Peter
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Re: GS timing belts / tensioners

Post by 2cy » 15 Dec 2015, 21:37

Yes I've read that the G10 engines (1015cc) are a little different. In fact I'd hazard a guess that very few major components are interchangeable, as all other GS engines have a longer stroke @ 65.5mm (whereas the M10 is 59mm). This of course necessitates a different crank throw and therefore crankcases, longer barrels, and oil-return tubes.

The 1220 and 1300 engines also have larger bores @ 77 and 79.4mm respectively. The 1130 shared the same 74mm bore, and so presumably the pistons of the 1015cc. Cylinder heads for the larger capacities would have had to be different, as the centres between bores would have increased. The 1130's cylinder heads might have been the same but for, I'd hope, improved ports.? 8-[

Compression ratio dropped from 9:1 on the 1015.. to 8.2:1 on the 1220, and 8.7:1 on the 1300. The 1130 also had 9:1. However I speculate that the cams were different, as the peak rpm on each of the three larger versions are less, and the emphasis had moved to each producing more torque and with that fuel economy. With different cams, the rocker arms probably changed too. Of course the air cooling tinware, and in / out manifolds would need to have been revised too #-o

I can only assume that with having to :oops: reinvest in tooling and production stock, Citroen took the opportunity to make a few other upgrades in view of M10 experiences. Aside from which there were supplier changes between Ducellier, SEV-Marchal and Paris-Rhone, and then again between Solex and Webber.

The differences between the GS and Ami-Super's M10 engines is however I gather more limited to the latter not having the various suspension-hydraulics take-offs. =D>

Peter.
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Re: GS timing belts / tensioners

Post by Stonehopper » 15 Dec 2015, 23:22

Apologies all, correction confirmed. Must have had my wrong teeth in.
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