Base model charm

[Spaces]

I agree, once you've had a big car with a lot of creature comforts it's hard to find a great deal to like in a small basic. I find them terribly claustrophobic generally and the appalling quality of the thing generally gets to me very quickly, especially the seats and plastics which give a horrible feel generally, especially the switchgear. Dashboards and instruments in basic, cheap cars are not pleasing to look at.

Not sure what you're on about there, Jim. What you describe above is alarmingly close to a Xantia for me - a little claustrophobic, seats are short in the squab, plastics not very pleasant, dashboards and everything else Wolfsburg coalmine black in PSA's attempt to chase the lower order Germans... switches are typically Peugeot cheap and unpleasant to use, heater fan noisy, heater controls 70s-style Japcrap, suspension a sad reminder of what once was - need I go on?

On the other hand, you didn't mind PSA-style cheap in a BX14 which seemed to offer more for less - the seats were decent, the car was airy, ride and handling excellent, for the price it always seemed a bargain. What seemed cheap in an expensive variant appeared honest in a cheaper one, in my experience. In the same vein, a 2cv never upset me by its lack of gizmos, rather it impressed by the lack of things to go wrong and its tremendous abilities, notwithstanding the 1940s development and less than 30hp available.

My ancient 124 Mercedes are very basic also - no aircon, no electronics, no electric seat adjustment - you simply enjoy high quality design, mechanical operation and materials - not least the understressed and seemingly everlasting and smooth-running 6 cylinder diesels which easily go beyond the half-million mile mark. The seats are beautifully comfortable and supportive, the switchgear is exquisitely crafted and simple yet important things like fan motors operate almost silently while providing a massive supply of air to the cabin. On a hot day, significant amounts of insulation help prevent heat sink from the engine compartment and through the roof - to the extent you rarely feel overheated. Air-conditioning, as on a 2cv, is quite unnecessary in the UK. The whole car reminds me of the integrity of design which Citroen once applied to their vehicles. The vehicles work beautifully as a whole, never tiring, never annoying - it takes many thousands of miles to appreciate some of the subtler aspects of design and engineering.

In a time when bluetooth, climate control and form over function appear to be so important, I will choose fundamentally expensive and thoughtful design every time.

[CitroJim]

Not sure what you're on about there, Jim.

I do! There have been many occasions when I've driven moderns and the pleasure in getting back into a Xantia is overwhelming. I see no poor quality in anything at all there and compared to much it is very airy. Everything is nicely screwed together and the instruments are perfectly pleasing to look at, day or night (as long as all the bulbs work!). Switchgear also. Just try going from a Pug 207 or a Pug 307 back to an Xantia and I think you'll understand what I mean. A Poxhall Corsa even more so...

I'm sorry but in general I have to disagree with everything you say but against that I have no experience of the old Mercs you speak of. They have never held any appeal - I'm not much into things that have had a styling bypass and I'm afraid all the Jerry stuff falls into that category for me; however well engineered it may be if it doesn't please my eye it's all wasted.

[Spaces]

I suppose everything is relative, and I have no experience of Corsas, 207s or 307s - I tend to run older, simplish, quality cars (which are fast becoming a rare breed). Many please the senses as a whole - not just the eyes; no sound of inline four droning along under the bonnet which eventually becomes tiring on a long journey (although I find PSA's 2.1 diesel a fantastic four-banger and faster CXs neer bothered me), the touch of expensive materials and beautifully-acting switches and so on.

I do find the overwhelming black of most Xantias' interiors depressing and rather like those of VWs - especially when Citroen used to make cars with really stylish, intelligent and ergonomic dashboards. It's a car's interior which matters to me from a styling point-of-view and the aerostability and dynamics of the body's shape - form over function, as with any quality machine. It is testimony to the engineers that old Citroens' bodies managed to tick all the boxes!

[ashy90]

Interesting what some people say or think about air conditioning in cars. I Know in other, hotter countries, A/C was made more mainstream in 'normal' cars way before here in the UK (for obvious reasons). I would say it wasn't untill the mid - late 1990's that it became far more common/popular here - and that would only be on larger normal/every day cars, not smaller cars. Even then, it was often something you had to pay extra for, or only available on the top spec models. My dad has a 1997 Ford Mondeo 2.0 GLX, which does NOT have A/C.

Now a days it is found in even the smallest of cars, but I have to ask.....is it actually needed here in the UK? My 2000 Rover 45 has it, whilst I used it a fair amount last year, I have not used it all this year! Well, I tell a lie....I HAVE used it, but only for the sake of using it to get the gasses flowing and stop the system deteriorating and drying out etc. I have not once used it for the sake of cooling me down.

BUT, it might sound daft, but I think it depends on what car you are driving. Some cars seem to get far hotter inside than others - for example, my mothers old black Vauxhall Astra. Things that make a differance are of course the colour - as we all know black cars get far hotter inside than a white car for example. But, other things make a differance aswell, such as whether the car has a sunroof or not, if it is a 3 door or 4/5 door, and whether or not it has electric windows in the rear. My mums black Vauxhall Astra got incredibly hot, yet my Rover 45 is basically black (anthracite grey) but is usually bare-able without the use of the A/C - all I do is drop the rear electric windows, and perhaps open the sunroof to the tilt position, creating a nice cool flow of air. Up at speed on motorways etc. having all of the windows open can of course be noisy and annoying, but I find if I keep the front windows closed, put blower on coolest setting but on speed 1 or 2, open the sunroof to the tilt position, the temperature is fine - and not to noisy even at speed. Sometimes if it gets too hot still I might drop the rear electric windows a small amount. Obviously on a car with no sunroof, and no electric rear windows (or a 3 door car) then you can not do these things.

[Spaces]

Some interesting points you make, Ashy90. Most cars today seemed to be built with AC designed into the ventilation and heating system, whether or not it will be fitted. This appears to create convoluted lengths of ducting under the dash which never seems to give 'fresh' air when on cold. So if AC is fitted, then it is needed. Dark cars with dark interiors can be felt heating up to unbearable temperatures when vehicle speeds slow or stop in sunny, warm weather - many cars have little or no insulation agaunst heat or cold.

Strangely, given the poor ventilation, my CXs always seemed quite ok in really hot weather when other cars weren't, I don't know why. Perhaps the amazing ride and roadholding soothed any other problems. My old W124 Merc appears to have loads of insuation, in the roof, the floor, the bulkhead, on the outside of the bulkhead (for heat and sound I suppose) and on a hot day the difference is immense compared with most other cars I ever use. There just isn't the feeling of radiated heat coming at you from all directions, it's lovely.

Dark coloured cars with poor insulation and ventilation make no sense in any climate where the sun ever becomes intense - air conditioning is always needed, burning more fuel - which plenty say makes temperatures even less bearable. A 2cv never seems to overheat despite little insulation - the ventilation is so complete, even with the hood over. A wind-up vent shutter is so much easier to repair than air conditioning, too!

[Northern_Mike]

Not sure what you're on about there, Jim.

I do! There have been many occasions when I've driven moderns and the pleasure in getting back into a Xantia is overwhelming. I see no poor quality in anything at all there and compared to much it is very airy. Everything is nicely screwed together and the instruments are perfectly pleasing to look at, day or night (as long as all the bulbs work!). Switchgear also. Just try going from a Pug 207 or a Pug 307 back to an Xantia and I think you'll understand what I mean. A Poxhall Corsa even more so...

I'm sorry but in general I have to disagree with everything you say but against that I have no experience of the old Mercs you speak of. They have never held any appeal - I'm not much into things that have had a styling bypass and I'm afraid all the Jerry stuff falls into that category for me; however well engineered it may be if it doesn't please my eye it's all wasted.

I have to agree with Jim here. I drive pool cars from work - Toyotas, Fords, and had a 11-plate Focus with 2k miles on it as a courtesy car recently. I love getting back in to my Xantia, even though it's old and a little tatty.

We had an old Merc in Greece for 11 years. It was the 2 litre auto version, a 1983 model. It was well put together and the climate control (factory fit) worked well enough. It was uninspiring and very very expensive when it broke, which it did, more often than you would think, despite being fastidiously maintained. It was a minter, but met it's death under the scrappage scheme where it was replaced by a new Skoda Octavia.. which was a far more inspiring car!

EDIT: I must add, that when I got my first XM, I worked up in Blackburn. My boss had a brand new company Focus saloon. I had to use it to drive to our other site in Bolton. After my S1 Diesel XM, I honestly thought it was broken and asked him to get it checked out.

[Spaces]

I don't disagree that Xantias are thoroughly decent cars, just that it's a shame a once-great company feels the need to copy the insane dullness of other modern cars. That I regularly use one says it all, I suppose. There is still greatness lurking in them and they suit our local roads to a tee, nothing is quicker or easier. But I do miss the high quality machines (if not perfect) which used to be available at sensible money - Saabs, Alfa Romeos, Citroens, Mercedes.

The 123 Mercedes you mention Mike sounds like a bit of a poverty model - the equivalent of a 1.6 Xantia - which must have struggled to give acceptable go with an autobox. Interesting that it went wrong much, the 123s are used throughout Africa alongside 504s for good reason. My 124s have proved thoroughly bomb-proof, rear (Citroën-based, but way inferior) suspension excepted, which blows ram seals - older than 150k miles - with ease if you're towing something heavy fast and hard on poor roads. I guess anything German is always going to be most at home at sustained high speed on a smooth road, which isn't to say mine doesn't like British B-roads - it just doesn't have its DNA evolved perfectly for them. Neither does any French car, for that matter, although a distant 1.9 diesel Clio reminded me of how a decent British car could tackle our indigenous byways with nonchalance - and proved tough and long-lasting.