Theoretical tax band question

[spider]

Just a theoretical tax band question really.

Lets say you removed the FAP from a later HDi unit, are you not by doing this (technically) increasing over time its emission output so it should go into a higher road tax band ?

And the same for say an indirect engine where replacing an electronic controlled pump with an earlier mechanical one.

I realise that they will still be well below emission limits for MOT's anyway.

I'm not on about engine swaps etc, just curious...

[rory_perrett]

It is not a tax on the actual CO2 output (you could claim that fuel duty does that) it is just an arbitary way of trying to change behaviour and at the same time raise money.

My 2000 Xantia is taxed on engine size so it £200+ If the car was a year newer it would have been taxed on emissions and would probably cost less.

Wife's Xsara is a 2001 and she pays £135 cos its based on emmissions.

But I do 55+ mpg and she does about 45 mpg so per mile she emmits more CO2

But I do 25,000+ miles per year emmitting 5.7 tonnes of CO2

She does under 6000 miles emmitting 1.4 tonnes of CO2.

So who should pay what tax?

[spider]

Oh I would not argue the structure is not quite right. A quick example my 205TD was given its age a lot of road tax, however I swapped to a (non PSA) vehicle with a 1.6 engine that only did about 30mpg possibly because of emission restrictions and being an auto too (compared to 50mpg) although the tax for the 1.6 was cheaper as it was emission based rather than age based...

Then there's the EGR concern, although given I think that's hydrocarbon related and they are not tested for anyway on an MOT removing an EGR (on a petrol unit at least) would not violate any emission level that I could see.

If you wanted a more practical example if my 106 had the mechanical pump instead of the (rarer) electronic one, the road tax would be more as it would be in a different band. I cannot find the appropriate link at the moment but I was studying it a couple of days ago.

I was more thinking about that and those with FAP removal etc as to if its an offence or not (insufficient duty?) or if this only is really applicable when its new.

EDIT... Found it (106 1.5D)

8 May 1998 - 1 Mar 2001 , £135.00
1 Mar 2001 - 1 Jan 2003 , £120.00

Then again that's age related I think I may be going around in circles needlessly.

[Xaccers]

Remember, the first fudge for road tax was based on engine size not emissions, then when they realised the public were learning too much they had to base it on emissions (remember the annoucements about the 2 cars in the UK, not two types, but 2 actual cars, which would get zero taxed at the time?), so there are cars from a certain age band where the smaller the engine the lower the tax, even if the larger engines are actually more environmentially friendly.
Also, not sure if this is still the case, but if a car isn't sold in the UK, they don't have applicable emission figures for taxing it, so if you were to import a Humvee with it's 8 miles to the gallon engine, you'd pay the same as a Mk1 Xantia.
Definitely agree with ditching road tax and putting it on the price of fuel duty (he says, driving on tax free veg)

[spider]

Some good points there.

Definitely agree with ditching road tax and putting it on the price of fuel duty (he says, driving on tax free veg)

They planned on doing this in the early 90's ? I remember some talk about it on the news at least.

Trouble is now the way the duty has gone up anyway over the past few years via the fuel escalator (iirc that was intended to be a temporary measure for x years ? but the last govt. "forgot" to remove it) they already have in effected "added" road tax to fuel duty... I don't think the motoring public would stand for it doubling somehow at the moment.

[Xaccers]

I believe it was brought in to recoup the cost of the first gulf war and as a so called deterrant on damaging the environment by driving too much (that old chestnut).
Labour put it on hold for 2-3 years, to go down well with the voters, then brought it in with an 8p hike (so basically adding the missed years' rises back in, plus an extra for good measure) and a 2p increase due each year.

[reblack68]

I believe a car's emission figure stays with it for life regardless of what changes you make, and that includes fitting a different engine. I've a feeling that also applies to older cars that are taxed on engine size.

Removing the FAP would improve fuel economy and therefore reduce emissions wouldn't it?

[JohnD]

Removing the FAP would improve fuel economy and therefore reduce emissions wouldn't it?

From my experience I would say NO. My C5 has had its FAP removed and my fuel figures haven’t changed hardly at all. True, the car seemed much livelier immediately after having the job done but now the only benefit is not having to worry about the Eolys fluid. Comparing 2011’s MOT result with this year, as you would expect, there’s been an increase at the smoke test. This year’s result was 2.16, whereas the previous year was 1.15.

However having given those figures, it seems that from my records, there is no consistency in MOT smoke test results, and the end result is very hit and miss.

I take four of our family diesels for test each year; all to the same testing station; all tested each time on the same machine. And all four cars having been driven ten miles along motorways before being tested. In each case, the first figure is the most recent.

Saxo 1.09:... 2.25:... 0.76:... 0.60:... 1.46:... 1.77
Pug 306 1.24:... 1.12:... 2.4:... 1.09:... 1.04:... 0.48
Xsara 2.48:... 2.6:... 1.24:... 0.68:... 2.98
C5 2.16:... 1.15:... 0.46:... 1.46

If the smoke test had any validity, surely you would expect the smoke to get denser as the years progressed?

[rory_perrett]

I believe a car's emission figure stays with it for life regardless of what changes you make, and that includes fitting a different engine. I've a feeling that also applies to older cars that are taxed on engine size.

The emission fiqure might but for pre 2001 cars if you change the engine for a bigger one you are supposed to tell DVLA and they change (read increase) the tax band. I put a 2000cc engine in a car that had been less than 1600cc and it is now taxed as a 2000cc cos I was a good boy and told them. Just sent the V5 off with the new engine number and size.

If you do it the other way and fit a smaller engine they make you jump through hoops before they will reduce the tax.

[nick]

I believe a car's emission figure stays with it for life regardless of what changes you make, and that includes fitting a different engine.

Yes you are correct about that. There is no mechanism in place in the UK for a car to ever have its CO2 emissions reassessed for RFL purposes, a VIN lives and dies with the same official CO2 emissions figure, regardless of any mods made to the vehicle during its life.

Put a 6 litre carb V8 engine in a Prius and it still gets the cheap road tax