C5. Drivers side headlight not working cops stopped me

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Re: C5. Drivers side headlight not working cops stopped me

Post by myglaren »

There is an element of truth in your accusation Richard, tempered by the fact that I was well known as a camera perv in the town (everyone knew everyone there) and the police knew it too. I was stood with some friends and he wanted to be the big man (he was too).

As said, had his approach been reasonably civil there would have been no problem but, as I learned later, this was his SOP.
Didn't do him any good on this occasion and certainly being acquainted with the Superintendent probably made it all go away quite quickly but I hadn't thought of that at the time, only when I was left in the cell. I wouldn't have expected him to be onsite really.

I knew I had no difficulty in proving the legality of my ownership. If he'd had his eyes open he would have known me, I was used by a local and a regional newspaper for local interest photo's so my name was published often enough.

Not saying I was David Bailey but was fairly well known locally.

He just thought it was an easy pinch, snot-nosed kid with heaps of expensive cameras, got to be bent.

As said, this was my single unpleasant experience with the police, anywhere. It's the odd bad one that spoils it for the rest, as with anything.
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Re: C5. Drivers side headlight not working cops stopped me

Post by DickieG »

Ah so you are or at least were a pervert, no wonder the Defective dealt with you like that :lol:

Everyone has bad days and just as in every organisation there are people who lack personality skills and start off conversations in a very poor manner. I think one thing to bear in mind with a number of these tales about obnoxious Police Officers is that very few people are pleased at being stopped by Police, at the very least it cuts into your time and when questions are being asked of you to explain your movements/possession of articles/condition of your car it's human instinct to sometimes become defensive if not somewhat annoyed at this intrusion into your personal life which can then cause a degree of resentment to be felt and expressed towards the Officer dealing with you, strangely enough the Officer who is after all human, (yes they are and they do have feelings) picks up such an attitude and responds back, the result is a resented stop. Not ideal or an excuse for poor behaviour but it happens to everyone at some point. I'm not suggesting that anyone here has done that but it's something that does need to be taken into consideration when listening/reading to such tales.

Unfortunately stop and search is an essential crime fighting tool with no obvious alternative and by it's very nature is always likely to be controversial with a high potential for conflict, the alternative of not having stop and search just doesn't bear thinking about.
Xac wrote:Steve, if that happened today your DNA would forever be on the criminal database despite being innocent.
I don't have a problem with my DNA being on the national database, especially when you consider that it's the most certain way of proving who you are in relation to crime. Every time I read about a cold case which has now been solved due to someone say being nicked for drink drive where their DNA is taken and then it pops up that they are responsible for a rape or similar vile crime from donkeys years ago I feel that every person in the country should have their DNA taken. Also bear in mind that for every person convicted using DNA there are just as many (and possibly more) who are found to be innocent as a result of DNA.
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Re: C5. Drivers side headlight not working cops stopped me

Post by CitroJim »

DickieG wrote:I don't have a problem with my DNA being on the national database, especially when you consider that it's the most certain way of proving who you are in relation to crime. Every time I read about a cold case which has now been solved due to someone say being nicked for drink drive where their DNA is taken and then it pops up that they are responsible for a rape or similar vile crime from donkeys years ago I feel that every person in the country should have their DNA taken. Also bear in mind that for every person convicted using DNA there are just as many (and possibly more) who are found to be innocent as a result of DNA.
Yes, yes and many times yes =D>
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Re: C5. Drivers side headlight not working cops stopped me

Post by myglaren »

CitroJim wrote:
DickieG wrote:I don't have a problem with my DNA being on the national database, especially when you consider that it's the most certain way of proving who you are in relation to crime. Every time I read about a cold case which has now been solved due to someone say being nicked for drink drive where their DNA is taken and then it pops up that they are responsible for a rape or similar vile crime from donkeys years ago I feel that every person in the country should have their DNA taken. Also bear in mind that for every person convicted using DNA there are just as many (and possibly more) who are found to be innocent as a result of DNA.
Yes, yes and many times yes =D>
Indeed, for those of us with no criminal tendencies it can't hurt and as said could in fact serve to eliminate where a suspicion existed.
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Re: C5. Drivers side headlight not working cops stopped me

Post by Xaccers »

DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:Steve, if that happened today your DNA would forever be on the criminal database despite being innocent.
I don't have a problem with my DNA being on the national database, especially when you consider that it's the most certain way of proving who you are in relation to crime. Every time I read about a cold case which has now been solved due to someone say being nicked for drink drive where their DNA is taken and then it pops up that they are responsible for a rape or similar vile crime from donkeys years ago I feel that every person in the country should have their DNA taken. Also bear in mind that for every person convicted using DNA there are just as many (and possibly more) who are found to be innocent as a result of DNA.
Had you suffered mistreatment by the police Richard, I think you may have a different view.
We could end up with a government that was worse than the last one and misuse that information.
I also have no problem with people being arrested having their DNA taken to be checked against a database of samplies to try and solve more crimes, but there is no need to keep that DNA if the person is innocent just as at the moment the police can't demand DNA samples from someone without having cause to arrest them.
Mistakes happen, look at Shirley McKie who was accused of being at a crime scene she hadn't been to because her fingerprints were found there. Except they weren't hers. She went through accusations of an affair, suspension, sacking, and a court case to then be aquitted.
Caused by the forensics experts getting it wrong, and compounded by her colleagues not wishing to question the validity of the "myth" that all fingerprints are unique.
So no malice was meant by the forensics department, they weren't out to get her, they just made a mistake in their assessment of the evidence.
Other people have been convicted due to police corruption though, it only takes one of those bad coppers to make it through the ranks into the right position and to abuse that position either to get a quick result or to play out a personal vendetta (the falsifying of speed gun evidence against a woman in Hampshire springs to mind, but at the extremes there are the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four).
Likewise I think a well thought out and implemented secure ID card system would be extremely beneficial, but we're never going to get one, instead if we get another government like the last one we may get a badly thought out insecure and pretty useless one.
Imagine just having one card, used for accessing everything, but with sensible features such as a 6 or 8 digit passcode/word and when requried to be entered only a few of those digits are used, so if someone watches your fingers it still won't help them. Or secure terminal access to the actual data, so if you need to update your vehicle information at the DVLA, their system can only access vehicle related data so there would be no way a staff member could get at the raw data.
Or when you go to pay for something, put your card in the chip n pin machine, be presented with a list of accounts (who's order you can confgure), pick the one you want to use and enter the required digits of your passcode and job done.
Israel implemented biometric passports without the worry of having your fingerprints on record, their scanners check the dimensions of your hand against that on file for your passport, so you swipe your passport to say who you are, then scan your hand and it checks the result against the details on file. If it matches you're good to go.
Of course if someone chopped your hand off, or managed to find someone with a hand the same dimensions as yours then the system can be fooled, but the liklihood of that taking place is insignificant.

As for the "people have been found innocent due to DNA" statement, that has no relivance to the samples stored on the database, you don't need their DNA prior to the offence to find out they're innocent, you can take a sample when they're arrested and if found not to match the crime scene sample, destroy the innocent person's DNA sample (unless they specifically consent to having it kept on file).

Have I derailed the thread enough? Ooops!
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Re: C5. Drivers side headlight not working cops stopped me

Post by myglaren »

Xac wrote: Have I derailed the thread enough? Ooops!
It's about as derailed as it is possible to get :)

Any luck with the headlight Boris
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Post by addo »

Aye; they'll be hearing his bail application Monday I believe.
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Re: C5. Drivers side headlight not working cops stopped me

Post by DickieG »

Xac I think you're far too suspicious of the Police having sinister intentions, after a bad experience you clearly assume that a significant proportion of Police are corrupt which I can assure you couldn't be further from the truth, as I mentioned to you previously political interference is a very dangerous thing in Policing as it sets targets which have to be met with the consequence that pressure is applied to allow politicians to claim through statistics that they are doing a wonderful job.

As for using the Birmingham six and Guildford four as example's of Police falsifying evidence and corruption I'd look elsewhere personally, yes there was an element of doubt proving the cases beyond all reasonable doubt on appeal but have you ever stopped to think of why the Police targeted those individuals? I'll leave that thought you.

Also never underestimate what goes on in the background with such cases, just this week files released from Margaret Thatcher era reveal that the so called "Iron Lady who never negotiates with terrorists" did just that several times with the IRA and if you want to compare legislation brought in by the previous Government and the one prior to that leave well alone is my advice otherwise I'll spout all manner of non workable knee jerk legislation brought in by dopey Home Secretaries chasing votes and claiming to be the party of law and order, nothing could be further from the truth, believe me.

I certainly wouldn't use anything Israel does a good example of correct legal behaviour, how many breaches of human rights is that state in breach of with the United Nations??

I'm not sure of the details of Shirley Mckie but by your description whereas finger prints are useful they are nowhere near as accurate a way of proving someone's involvement in a crime as DNA, so why the objection to storing DNA?

A certain high profile was proved this week by the use of DNA, no other method was able to prove the case.

If everyone had their DNA recorded on files it would by it's very existence make a few people think twice about committing certain crimes such as those of a sexual nature and violence such as the use of knives, that in itself is good enough for me not to mention the greater certainty of being able to identify the offender quicker.

You give the impression of believing every other Police Officer is corrupt or maybe you think it's 10% which is total fantasy on your part, let me assure you that the stakes are very high for anyone getting caught, the punishment for anyone doing such a thing are far more severe than the public would suffer, almost any crime you commit as a Police Officer results in a loss of career with the strong possibility of a long term inside where they are a prime target/trophy for fellow prisoners, I don't feel sympathy for anyone getting caught as they deserve all they get because they end up causing people like me having to defend ourselves by telling the truth/reality of what police are really like.
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Re: C5. Drivers side headlight not working cops stopped me

Post by Xaccers »

I don't know Richard, I think a biometric method which can't be used to track you ie by having fingerprints on file seems like the best way to implement it.
As for the other valid issues you raised regarding that country, having grown up in the middle east and been to Israel several times I think it'd definitely a discussion for a different forum :)

The thing is, it only takes one dodgy copper to ruin someone's life. It's all well and good giving out compensation and freeing someone after years of wrongful incarceration, but that really doesn't make amends for the harm done.
Honest mistakes happen with forensics, even with DNA samples getting mixed up, and we know how poorly implemented government IT projects are (Jim's excluded obviously).
If the DNA database and all the processes involved with it were 100% infallable and tamper proof I'd be all for it, but we've known from previous experience it can't be so. Some stations have been caught storing DNA samples in the staff fridge, hardly secure, and other cases have failed due to contamination between articles recovered from the crime scene/suspects once in Police/forensics hands.
So there are two issues, bad coppers (you can try and bring them round or sack them, and as you say there's only a relative few so it's not like police numbers would take a big hit is it?) and human error (which you can't do much about, even if you introduce new proceedures, humans make mistakes and often not follow those proceedures).
It's why I'm against the death penalty, because if you're wrong, there's no going back. If someone is found guilty of a serious crime such as murder, stick them in an isolation cube, feed them through a hatch and never let them see another human for the rest of their lives.
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Re: C5. Drivers side headlight not working cops stopped me

Post by Northern_Mike »

DickieG wrote: It never ceased to amaze me how often I'd legitimately stop a car then get all manner of abuse from the occupants then find that whilst they didn't have stolen property/drugs with them the car they were driving had a defect, er hello, the words, brain, use, think about it, come to mind.
I have, in the past, been stopped on numerous occasions. In my younger (very young) days I had a couple of pints and then drove home. I forgot to put my lights on. I wasn't pissed and blew a green, but it just showed me how alcohol affects your judgment. The officer who stopped me told me straight that leaving the lights off is a common sign of a drink-driver. I learnt (that) lesson then.

All my other dealings with the police have been, almost always good-humoured. I did get a little sarcasm and surprise when I was stopped many years ago (in a Berlingo van of all things) "Are you having trouble taking off captain? It's taken us 4 miles to catch you, and we are in an Escort Cosworth"... that was coming down Blubberhouses towards the Skipton end, and I had the van showing off the clock, which earned me a ban. I was, as you should be, contrite and polite when I was finally pulled over. A good humoured expected bollocking of the usual nature "You know if you had a blow out at that speed you'd be dead etc... sort of thing" and I went on my way. That was 1998.

Back in 2005 I was driving up the M40 in the early hours and I pulled in at Warwick services to fill up. A police car followed me in and my heart sank. I'd been doing considerably over the limit - well into 3 figures. He just pulled up alongside me and said "Sir, we've been following you for some time (Mike thinks, "oh sh1t") and you appear to be in somewhat of a hurry. Would you mind slowing down a little as there are icy patches out there, and we would rather not spend what's left of the night out in the cold trying to extract what's left of you and your car from the verges"... smiled, winked, and drove off.

Last time I got stopped was back in 2009 when I'd just bought my MX-5. I'd insured it, but my insurers hadn't updated the MID. I was driving up the M6 just North of Birmingham when a Police Volvo started tailing me - probably for about 5 miles while they checked it out, then pulled me. I was, as usual, all "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir", Showed my licence, gave them details of my insurer who they rang, confirmed I was insured (and told off for not updating the MID and wasting their time) and sent me on my way. They were very nice chaps, and even turned the heater in their Volvo up while I was sat in the back when I complained I was cold (it was December, and I was just wearing a t-shirt!). I asked them, partly as a joke, if either of them had ever been on Police, Camera, Action as it often featured Cheshire plod. "Some of us like to stay out the limelight sir, and lets face it, most people we stop are as polite as you, and we just send them on their way. It wouldn't make for great telly would it?"..

I'm no angel, and I love driving fast, which puts me at risk of getting nicked. I only do it in what I believe to be safe places, never in urban areas, never at busy times, and always where I can see what the road ahead is like. I find that those who have problems with the Traffic Police, usually have something to hide from them.
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Re: C5. Drivers side headlight not working cops stopped me

Post by Xaccers »

Incidently, back in 2008 it was shown that despite the huge increase in records added to the DNA database, only between 0.34 and 0.36% of cases were solved with it, and the increase in records had not resulted in an increase in solved cases rate, which is exactly what you'd expect if you fill a database with DNA from law abiding citizens.
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Re: C5. Drivers side headlight not working cops stopped me

Post by Northern_Mike »

Xac wrote: Had you suffered mistreatment by the police Richard, I think you may have a different view.
You should have seen the bruises and swellings the Greek police left on me when I got mistaken for someone else when I lived in Athens..

I still agree with Richard.
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Re: C5. Drivers side headlight not working cops stopped me

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Activa_Mike wrote:I find that those who have problems with the Traffic Police, usually have something to hide from them.
Especially as they're more likely to be lippy with the police.
I think what we object to (as I'm sure the police object to as well) is uncalled for attitude when you're being polite and amicable.
The one time I got points on my license was in my Laguna II heading down the M3 past Fleet where I got pulled over and discovered my brakes were a bit better than the Volvo the police had *ooops* they anchored up and thought I'd slammed on the brakes where as I just brought the car to a gentle stop.
Two very pleasant chaps, told me off and not to do it again, clocked me doing about 94mph just under the up in front of the magistrates limit so 3 points and a £60 fine.
They asked me what the Laguna was like, I chose not to point out there was a damn sight more room in the back of it than their car :D
I also didn't try pointing out that the cars in front of me were going faster, it made no difference to the fact I was breaking the law and was caught red handed.
We went our mery ways and I've not been done for speeding since.

Dad got stopped in the late 80's doing over 100 up the A3 in his 205D.
They couldn't believe a little car could do that, especially a diesel so asked to see the engine, and spent a good 10 minutes or so just chatting about cars.
They could see dad wasn't a dangerous driver, just a fast one, it was on a straight stretch and he'd slowed down well before the bend at the end.
They'd actually been after an idiot in a BMW who managed to give them the slip at Hindhead's lights, so they were happy to catch at least someone speeding that day, but because dad was polite and chatty it made a pleasant moment in their day and they wrote him up for exceeding the 70mph speed limit rather than the specific speed which would have resulted in a ban and loss of job.
I know most traffic cops don't like ruining peoples' lives if they've just been a bit heavy on the right foot but not done it dangerously.
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Re: C5. Drivers side headlight not working cops stopped me

Post by DickieG »

Xac wrote:Incidently, back in 2008 it was shown that despite the huge increase in records added to the DNA database, only between 0.34 and 0.36% of cases were solved with it, and the increase in records had not resulted in an increase in solved cases rate, which is exactly what you'd expect if you fill a database with DNA from law abiding citizens.
Absolutely Xac, but I can almost guarantee you that the cases solved were of a very serious nature and brought some closure and relief to the victims and their family/friends.

0.34 is a low percentage figure but when you work out the total number of crimes solved I think you'll be surprised, I don't know where you got that figure from and certainly wouldn't dispute it but I'd be interested to know if the source gives the total number of crimes and what the nature of them were.


On the speeding scenarios given where having a quiet word with the speeding motorist is seen as the preferred option I have quite a number of examples of pulling over motorists who were way over the speed limit to offer them a quick reminder about driving appropriately and I'd immediately be met with all manner of abuse as I'd had the cheek to stop them, quite what planet these people were on is beyond me. I was never in Traffic (AKA Black Rats) so preferred to offer advice but sometimes there were occasions where offering advice just wasn't enough, for some reason I'd then gave a deep sigh, open a report book, click my pen and points were liberally spread all over their licence and they'd never understand why or how that happened, ah bless them.
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Re: C5. Drivers side headlight not working cops stopped me

Post by Xaccers »

DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:Incidently, back in 2008 it was shown that despite the huge increase in records added to the DNA database, only between 0.34 and 0.36% of cases were solved with it, and the increase in records had not resulted in an increase in solved cases rate, which is exactly what you'd expect if you fill a database with DNA from law abiding citizens.
Absolutely Xac, but I can almost guarantee you that the cases solved were of a very serious nature and brought some closure and relief to the victims and their family/friends.

0.34 is a low percentage figure but when you work out the total number of crimes solved I think you'll be surprised, I don't know where you got that figure from and certainly wouldn't dispute it but I'd be interested to know if the source gives the total number of crimes and what the nature of them were.
Telegraph

I found another site which showed the numbers of cases solved from the DNA database where the offender had been arrested previously but had no record, it was 36.
Of course the home office hadn't seen fit to give any details such as if DNA was the only lead or if they were well known to the police.
It does show how much impact a small percentage can have on someone's life.
DickieG wrote: On the speeding scenarios given where having a quiet word with the speeding motorist is seen as the preferred option I have quite a number of examples of pulling over motorists who were way over the speed limit to offer them a quick reminder about driving appropriately and I'd immediately be met with all manner of abuse as I'd had the cheek to stop them, quite what planet these people were on is beyond me. I was never in Traffic (AKA Black Rats) so preferred to offer advice but sometimes there were occasions where offering advice just wasn't enough, for some reason I'd then gave a deep sigh, open a report book, click my pen and points were liberally spread all over their licence and they'd never understand why or how that happened, ah bless them.
And rightly so. It does give me some satisfaction when I see a PC dealing with a motorist decently and the daft bugger behind the wheel doesn't have the sense to either keep their mouth shut or just be polite and end up with a much greater penalty, and rightly so :)
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