Long oil change interval

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joan33987
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Long oil change interval

Post by joan33987 » 30 Apr 2010, 16:15

Cars from last few years has all extended their oil change intervals.
I've looked at the Laguna II dci engines, 18,000 miles interval!!!
04 Vectras 20,000mi!
New corsas 20,000mi!


When my 96 mk1 clio require 6000 mi interval, Personally, I change it every 4000-5000 if using semi syn.
My mate who drives a tuned up 350hp Subaru, change it every 4000 with fully syn.


does the really really long oil change interval nowadays, contribute to heavy oil consumption, turbo failures, engine failures?

How much different are engines of today compared to the 90s? Surely both are Electronic injection and not Carburettor which might dilute the engine oil with fuel and not burn so cleanly?

I've seen numerous cars like those turbo diesels 02, 03 Passats, Laguna, blown their turbos, anything to do with frequent short trips driving and not changing the oil more frequently?

If all those people who blown their turbos, change their oil half of the manufacturers recommendation, do you think the same thing would have happened?

Or is it just bad build quality from today's cars?

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Deanxm
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Post by Deanxm » 30 Apr 2010, 16:44

I think todays cars are mechanicaly about the same build quality as 90's cars, most advances have been electrical/safety/enviromental rather than improved mechanicaly.
My view is that new advances in oils have allowed them to last longer without breaking down due to the heat the lubricant is exposed to over its life which is fine BUT, i think a manufacturer doesnt give a damn if the car only lasts 100kmiles and the high mileage intervals between servicing looks good to fleet buyers and on the running costs of a new car, soots, carbon or fuel still make it into the oil and the filter can only remove particles of a certain size, everything else is being pumped around the engine, i now use semi synth and change it every 6months which (due to limited use) works out at an oil/filter change every 2k or when the car is going to get some heavy use, its not expensive to do this often but i guess it comes down to how much you value your car.........

D

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Citroenmad
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Re: Long oil change interval

Post by Citroenmad » 30 Apr 2010, 18:21

joan33987 wrote:
does the really really long oil change interval nowadays, contribute to heavy oil consumption, turbo failures, engine failures?
In my opinion, yes, almost certainly. This is somehting i feel very strongly about:

The 1.6HDi citroen engine (also used in Ford and Minis) can have turbo failure, due to poor oil quality/old oil. It blocks the pipes to the turbo, starving it of oil and therefore cooling leading to it overheating and being ruined.

I wouldnt look at Lagunas to buy, very nice cars to look at and id love to own one, but read the forums and honest john website and not even laguna owners would recommend one. Engines fail, turbos fail, 6 speed box fails. Not exactly small, cheap and easy to replace items. Then theres the smart card keys, electronics etc.

Vauxhall Vectra 1.9CDTis use a Fiat derived diesel engine. I cant comment on the drive of the engine but in construction its pretty poor. The dipstick has 3 oil level marks. Low - needs filling, full - no filling, should be filled to here on a service and total max. The middle mark is where the car should run at, however as time passes (20K miles intervals, madness) diesel gets into the oil and starts to fill up the sump with diesel.

Now, not only does this mean reduced lubrication as the oil is now mixed with fuel, but if the fuel/oil levels becomes too high and the dipstick is not checked then the engine drowns in its own oil. Quite a common problem among garages.

So i dont agree that cars and engines are becomming better built, far from it, i think in many ways cars are going backwards. Yes we have all the gadgets we can handle as well, super safe cars with loads of air bags and huge squidy front ends incase we bump into a person. But cars of the 90s tend to be the most reliable. Little in the way of electronics, nice strong diesels. Just look at the 1.9TD PSA engines and the 1.9TDi VAG engines, brilliant, simple and go on for ever.

I really dont like the ever increasing service intervals. Very little has changed on the cars or the oils to be able to run oil for longer.

The Audi A2 cars have a 1.4TDi engine, this is supposed to be able to do 30K miles between oil changes. So if your buying a A2 TDi with 110K miles, its had 3 oil changes, 3! In my mind it should have had 11 at minimum. Thats a huge difference.

By comparrison i have a 1.4TDi Seat, which needs to be serviced every 10-2K miles. Its exactly the same engine used in the Audi A2 and it uses the same PD graded oil. However in the Audi its supposed to last almosts 3 times as long. Really, id like to know how they come up with this idea. The thought of my 03 reg Seat 1.4TDi at 55K miles having had only 1 service scares me. Luckily mine has stuck to the seat services and so has 6 previous stamps in the book.

I certainly never stick to the recommended change times for anything. I do oil change and filters every 6K miles on the C5s as they do a fair few miles. The oil on the other cars gets done at 6-8 months as they get used less. The cambelt will be getting done soon on my C5 too, currently 71K miles, im not letting it go near 100K without one.

Another example is the 107/C1 and Aygo. These are 2 years or 20K between intervals. For something which is pretty much going to spend its life in a city doing short stop start runs under cold running conditions this is seriously not a great idea. Over short runs condensation builds up in the engine and fuel mixes with the oil. I know from our own 1.0 Seat that does town runs that it doesnt take too long for the oil to smell petroly. So i change it every 6 months. A mate had a 107 which sounded like a bag of spanners after 3 years, mind everything else was failing (clutches at 30K!) too.

An oil change costs just that, change, a new engine is every so slightly more!

Its madness. I would love to know how many modern cars reach their 150K miles cambelt intervals too.

Just my opinion of course, but i do like to keep my cars well serviced and for the price of an oil change its not really worth letting them go so long on the oil.

If you talk to many good garages they will know what cars have serious faults. Many modern cars engines do have faults which would put a lot of people off buying them if more knew. Cars are very much throw away items now. Im sure manufacturers think if the cars last 10 years or 100K miles then thats great, fantastic, now throw it away and buy a new one.

I believe, regular oil changes and services keeps running costs down, especially in the long run.

I still maintain that PSA deisels are among the very best today, the HDis are superb engines and do prove very reliable. Yes some have FAP filters, but agian if this is serviced its not a problem. So many manufacturers would not use PSA engines if they were not as good as they are.

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spider
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Post by spider » 30 Apr 2010, 21:16

The problem with the 20k service intervals (and I speak from talking to customers) is there was sometimes a difficulty getting them to understand they needed to have an oil change at the time interval even if they had not done the mileage.

Then there were cases of those who thought they would miss a service (which you would get away with I suppose at 6k intervals) but not at 12k or 20k

Interestingly, a lot of the customers I dealt with who had cars with 20k oil changes used to come in at about half that for a quick oil+filter change. Most of these people had previously owned the same make before and 'knew' in a way that having a quick oil change would be worth the small cost.

I'd never leave my own car that long. I do mine every 6 months / 5k but with a newer car (say 20k changes) I'd still be doing it at 10k at the most...

Don't forget, I guess all manufacturers are only really interested when its in the warranty period and possibly a few years after that. I think the engine life will be reduced with longer oil change intervals (say your engine will last around 150k instead of 300k)

Hmm...

EDIT... As I was told years and years ago, still applies
Oil is cheap and engines are not

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myglaren
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Post by myglaren » 30 Apr 2010, 21:28

Oil is pretty cheap at Asda just now - £14 for 5L!

Sl4yer
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Post by Sl4yer » 30 Apr 2010, 22:40

Are the time intervals on the new cars still 12 months? I can imagine the oil in a car that covers 20,000 miles per year being in much better condition than that in a car which covers 6000 miles per year.

This is an interesting discussion though, since I might be looking at an Audi A2 for the wife. :roll:

James

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Post by joan33987 » 30 Apr 2010, 22:41

myglaren wrote:Oil is pretty cheap at Asda just now - £14 for 5L!
Are they semi syn or mineral? Mineral are no good for the modern engine.
If £14 for 5L Semi syn, then that's really really cheap.
What Weight is it?
Semi Syn is just so much better, makes the engine smoother and slightly quieter at high rpm. (experienced from my motorcycle)

The Comma ones, are really value for money. Halfords ones are also good but slightly expensive.

Wonder why castrol and mobil are so expensive? Aren't they just the same thing?
Last edited by joan33987 on 30 Apr 2010, 22:50, edited 1 time in total.

joan33987
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Post by joan33987 » 30 Apr 2010, 22:49

Sl4yer wrote:Are the time intervals on the new cars still 12 months? I can imagine the oil in a car that covers 20,000 miles per year being in much better condition than that in a car which covers 6000 miles per year.

This is an interesting discussion though, since I might be looking at an Audi A2 for the wife. :roll:

James
The newish Vectras, Lagunas, Peugeots are all 20k or 2 years.
Oh yea, heard that certain A2 engines, have to have the oil sucked out from the oil filler cap. Just like the new peugeot 207 isn't it?

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Post by Sl4yer » 30 Apr 2010, 23:01

joan33987 wrote:The newish Vectras, Lagunas, Peugeots are all 20k or 2 years.
That's scary! Of course, the manufacturers 'assume' that all their cars are repmobiles. As said above, they don't care what happens once they're 7 or 8 years old.
joan33987 wrote:Oh yea, heard that certain A2 engines, have to have the oil sucked out from the oil filler cap. Just like the new peugeot 207 isn't it?
I'd be surprised. This might be an urban myth, since the A2 doesn't have an opening bonnet. Mind you, I've been surprised before! :)

James

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Post by joan33987 » 30 Apr 2010, 23:27

Sl4yer wrote:
I'd be surprised. This might be an urban myth, since the A2 doesn't have an opening bonnet. Mind you, I've been surprised before! :)

James
It has to have a way of accessing the engine or how could people change air filter, oil filter and spark plugs and the lot?

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Citroenmad
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Post by Citroenmad » 30 Apr 2010, 23:38

James, The A2 is a cracking car and ive often thought about buying one myself. Infact id still like one (in orange, very rare and my favourite colour)

The diesel engine is a belter, ive had two 1.4TDi Seats and they really perform and are very good on fuel too. Full of character being a 3 pot.

Im not sure how long the service intervals are on the petrol A2s (1.6FSI is the petrol to go for, 1.4 is ok, ive driven some 1.4 Lupos - same engine - its ok but a little dull) but they might possibly be 20K or two years, the diesels are 30K or two years i think.

Another big thing with A2s is cambelts, they were recommended (not just on the A2s but across the VAG range) to be replaced every 40K or 4 years. Most handbooks say 80K or 6 years, some say 60K. Though ive always done my VAG cars at 40 or 4 years to be safe, as it was changed because some were going early, especially the diesels.

Yes the A2 just has a flap on the front so you can check the basics. However there are two fixings under that flap which you undo and the bonnt lifts off. Obviously if you were looking at one you would want to remove the bonnet and check the engine, also check the bonnet is not damaged as its an odd thing to store when off the car.

No A2s dont have to have their oil sucked out, though i always suck th eoil from my 1.4TDis as its really easy and the filter is a paper unit on the top of the engine, sucking it out is far easier than removing the under trays.

I have heard that A2s have an oil quality sensor in the sump plug, which should tell you if the oil needs changing. However the cars do usually get to 30K miles without it coming on. It usually only warns if the wrong grade has been used. Specific 50501 PD engine oil grade.

Excellent cars the A2s, id recommend one strongly. There is an excellent A2 owners forum (A2OC) for more info.


Yes most cars are 20K OR two years, not yearly. I would say almost the majority of modern cars are on long life servicing now. Modern Citroens are no different. Our 05 C5 should be every 20K or two years, luckily we found one which has been done every 10K/yearly.

It could potentially be a selling point to a car, if someone is looking at buying one car which goes for two years or 20K without a service and another they are looking at needs a service yearly or 10K they might just go for the longlife service car for lower costs.

I get a good deal on oil from the citroen dealer, £20 for the correct Total oil. Very cheap and a lot less than halfords! Likewise my PD oil for the TDis, £20 from VW and £5 for the filter. Not bad. Or i did think that until i got oil and a filter for the micra i look after for £10! :lol:

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Post by addo » 30 Apr 2010, 23:59

Oil changing is overrated. Can we have a show of hands from people who have - in the last ten years - lost an engine or part thereof due to indisputable neglect of oil freshness?

I have seen first hand, failures due to underspec zinc content, but that is from the bottle - not oil ageing.

Cheers, Adam.

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Post by Sl4yer » 01 May 2010, 00:05

joan33987 wrote:It has to have a way of accessing the engine or how could people change air filter, oil filter and spark plugs and the lot?
Yes, it does, I believe the 'bonnet' unclips. But it was the first modern production car that didn't have an opening bonnet so Joe Public could have a fiddle with it. The only accessible bits are oil, water and PS fluid under a flap.

James

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Citroenmad
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Post by Citroenmad » 01 May 2010, 00:09

addo wrote:Oil changing is overrated. Can we have a show of hands from people who have - in the last ten years - lost an engine or part thereof due to indisputable neglect of oil freshness?

I have seen first hand, failures due to underspec zinc content, but that is from the bottle - not oil ageing.

Cheers, Adam.
I would hope that most people on here, it being a car forum and all, are at least interested enough to keep their oil in good condition. So might be very few on here who have had damage due to old oil.

Preventative maintenance ...

As oil ages it looses its lubricating factors. Yet its still there and lubricating but not as well as it once was. Its also carrying round carbon, soot, fuel etc, sludge builds up. If nothing else it can play havoc with hydraulic lifters, turbos etc.

Ive seen engines with major problems due to very poor oil quality. Overheating, premature wear etc.

Keeping clean oil in the engine increases engine life, quite a well known fact, surely.

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Post by Sl4yer » 01 May 2010, 00:22

Citroenmad wrote:James, The A2 is a cracking car and ive often thought about buying one myself. Infact id still like one (in orange, very rare and my favourite colour)
Thanks for the info! Had a Leon FR 150PD as a company car for a couple of years, and that was nice. 8-) VAG can certainly build them well.

My wife is a social worker, and daily has to transport kids in the back of her car (presently the Volcane!). But she's currently 4 months pregnant, so lifting kids in and out isn't going to be an option soon. All being well, this will be a long-term problem too!

The obvious solution to me is that she uses the Activa, but she doesn't like it (too big, awkward clutch, suspension that some female minds can't grasp :shock: ). I'd happily use the ZX. But it looks like something practical is required, either an A-Class Merc or an A2. The Merc appeals to me, but I've read some horror stories about repair costs (even on newer manual models). They're also supposed to ride horribly since they changed the suspension to stop them tipping over when there's a moose in the road. :D

She prefers the A2, but they're very expensive. I suppose that having only owned Citroens, it seems bizarre to me to pay a 4-figure sum for a 10 year old car. There's a Y-reg one about 100 yards from home which they're asking a fiver under 5K for! The A2 is pretty rare too, especially the 1.6 (which I'd prefer for the extra go), and good bodywork is important because they're aluminium.

Given that we've also just got married, there isn't a lot (actually, ANY!) cash to spare. But it might have to be done - I'll be gutted to lose the Volcane.

James