Yet more electronics

OwenP · Post by **OwenP** » 06 Jul 2007, 12:48

Is it only me who thinks this is a very bad idea?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6274974.stm

What happens when people have come to rely on it and it all goes wrong?

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 06 Jul 2007, 14:01

You and/or I may already be alive thanks to someone elses ABS system enabling them to avoid hitting us. Primarily it must be a good idea if it works and is reliable.

I wonder if it gets viruses and can be hacked?

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 06 Jul 2007, 14:20

Thing is, with ABS you need to be aware enough to hit the pedal in time.
This is handy for those moments when you lose concentration, but the problem is what if people, even a minority end up relying on it and it fails?

Everyone says that drivers are getting more dangerous because cars are getting safer.

OwenP · Post by **OwenP** » 06 Jul 2007, 14:25

You and/or I may already be alive thanks to someone elses ABS system enabling them to avoid hitting us. Primarily it must be a good idea if it works and is reliable.

I wonder if it gets viruses and can be hacked?

That's as may be with regards to ABS, but you hit the nail on the head, how long before a system like this will auto-brake for you, what happens when that fails or is hacked after people have become used to it?

Even just a warning system, given how some people drive what happens when someone wrongly stops for their hacked warning system and the person behind is too close? Now I know it can be argued that this can happen anyway, but why increase the chances?

There was a one of these electronic "features" on my driving instructor's car, whereby if you used the brakes the computer thought the engine was struggling so automatically increased the revs, this system could provide more power to the wheels than the brakes could stop!

Perhaps at the end of the day I'm too cynical and non trusting of computers.

Edit: reply to post made whilst typing.

Xac, exactly my point.

bxbodger · Post by **bxbodger** » 06 Jul 2007, 14:48

That's as may be with regards to ABS, but you hit the nail on the head, how long before a system like this will auto-brake for you, what happens when that fails or is hacked after people have become used to it?

That's here already although most people probably don't know they have it- it's EBA, electronic brake assist: the wife has it on her Kia but is completely unaware of it- the system senses that you are emergency braking and may need to be braking harder than you are actually doing, and assists you by increasing braking system pressure- combined with ABS it's a real lifesaver.........

......and, like my missus, the average driver does not rely on these systems, because they don't even know they are there, a kiddie runs out in front, instinct says slam on the anchors, the EBA helps you brake harder than you can possibly press the pedal yourself, and the ABS allows you to steer round said child under full braking: shaken driver gets out thinking how on earth did I avoid killing him? -chips, bits,and bytes that you never even knew were there,that's how!

I don't know why people are so frightened of electronics- Airbuses don't fall out of the sky every day, do they? The odd one has but overall they stay up there!

OwenP · Post by **OwenP** » 06 Jul 2007, 16:37

Most electronic in cars are single use processors, i.e. they have one job and that's it, this system would need a computer with a multitasking CPU. As far as I know anyway, I may be wrong. I have no experience with car computers due to the lack of any in mine. (apart from maybe the aircon which was ripped out)

As for Airbuses I can't comment, although I do know that any computers in them have to be "safety critical certified" which again boils down to a processor having a very limited remit of tasks, with lots of separate units.

I understand about the EBA, and agree that is a good idea, but it is a passive assistance system, by which I mean you are already doing the work when it kick in to help.

What I was meaning in the previous post was a system that see one of these risks and decides your not doing what the computer says you should so does it for you.

Homer · Post by **Homer** » 06 Jul 2007, 18:40

the system was not designed to replace driver caution or awareness.

Then why bother with it?

Why not put the effort into improving the driver?

Post by **CitroJim** » 06 Jul 2007, 19:06

Homer wrote:
the system was not designed to replace driver caution or awareness.
Then why bother with it?

Why not put the effort into improving the driver?

Absolutely and totally agreed. I'm concerned these initiatives will only serve to dumb-down driving even further, a situation that will have dire consequences. Drivers are already too well insulated from their task and rely too much on the safety aids to do thir work for them. It can only get worse. It has to be recognised that driving is a skill that must be honed and practiced and that a car is a very dangerous object in unskilled hands.

Driving a 205GTi and a Xantia demonstrates this to me. The 205 is non-assisted in every department and it has to be driven, it feeds back and bites. It does nothing to help you. It's very nature keeps you alert and on top of your task. The Xantia, for all intents and puposes, drives itself and conveys a very distorted sense of safety thanks to its Activa bits and it's overall quietness, competence and comfort. You're insulated in it and it is easy to let your concentration lapse.

Three times this week I've nearly been taken out by another car due to sheer neglect to observe and read the road and situation by the other driver. All by ones in newish cars filled with too many aids to so-called safety. We really do need to address the skillset of the average driver and not make the cars compensate for what they lack.

A case of curing the symptom rather than the underlying problem.

One modern aid I do believe is really good though, is ABS. I've saved the lives of countless cats because of it and certainly avoided at least one child thanks to ABS.

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 06 Jul 2007, 19:38

Hmmmm...

Something like a pauver & poor young dane going outlandish and first time in his life ever experiencing automatic drive. Then coming home to his standard clutch & lever car

Post by **philhoward** » 06 Jul 2007, 22:02

Alec Issigonis had the right idea...

Don't make the seats too comfortable or fit a radio - people will relax when they should be concentrating on driving...

bxbodger · Post by **bxbodger** » 07 Jul 2007, 00:29

One modern aid I do believe is really good though, is ABS. I've saved the lives of countless cats because of it and certainly avoided at least one child thanks to ABS.

Yet you'll still find Luddites who'll say ABS is the spawn of Satan and you should learn to cadence brake instead!

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 07 Jul 2007, 00:43

bxbodger wrote:Yet you'll still find Luddites who'll say ABS is the spawn of Satan and you should learn to cadence brake instead!

Absolutely correct. What ABS does is a replica of stepdancing with your foot on the brake pedal, the moment road/wheel friction is not up to scratch. Would NOT like to meet a driver who thinks he can perform as good using cadence braking techniques

Problem with ABS though is that many drivers think its safer to drive at higher speeds in general, because "its got ABS brakes".

OwenP · Post by **OwenP** » 07 Jul 2007, 07:35

I don't have ABS, and I'm fully aware that I won't be able to brake to the same standard, however I don't have the money to risk a car with ABS going wrong as some of the 405s seem to, my parent's one for instance could have cost them nearly £2000 when they first got it ,thankfully was under warranty though.

I too do not understand people who drive faster cause its got "xyz". Brings to mind a Top Gear recently when one of them was testing a car with loads of these fancy gizmos, it gave him a warning when the limits were being approached and then dumped him off the road when everything cut out cause it couldn't cope. I wonder how many accidents are caused by something similar?

As Homer says we need to improve the drivers, although first we need to have everyone that's on the road actually legally there, not passing by someone else taking their test for them. I may be being hypocritical, I may be one of the ones who needs improving I don't know, I like to think I'm a good driver, but then doesn't everyone.