Woe,Woe. and thrice times woe.

This is the place for posts that don't fit into any other category.

Moderator: RichardW

Post Reply
Homer
Posts: 1503
Joined: 26 Feb 2003, 10:52
Location: Yorkshire
My Cars: Current:
Volvo V60 D4 180

Previous:
BX16RS (two of),
BX19TZI,
Xantia 2.0i saloon,
Xantia 2.0 Exclusive CT turbo Break,
Peugeot 807 2.0 HDi 110,
Renault Grand Scenic, 2.0 diesel (150bhp)
C5 X7 2.0 HDi 160 which put me off French cars possibly forever
x 16

Post by Homer »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by James.UK</i>


** No mention of any other documents? I thought they had to give me a copy of a "Statement of Evidence" verifying that the camera complied with all rules and regulations at the time in question, and said statement had to be signed by the Police officer who checked the camera at the time.. ?? [?]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
At the moment they do not have to give you <b>anything</b> you have been extremly lucky to get the photos.
The usual advice at this point regarding sloicitors is not to bother unless you have money to burn. You are better saving for your appeal.
Now you have the pics you need to check the distance you travelled between them matches the speed they claim you were travelling at. They should check this before you get the NIP but since we have seen Allegro's clocket at Mach1 and a Peugeot prosecuted (yes, they took it all the way to court) for 406mph (you may be able to guess the model) they obviously don't. This page will help in calculating the spee dbut you will have to confirm the distance betwwn the markings and time between photo's with the SCP as they both vary around the country.
Since there were no streetlights you should also check into the legality of the speed limit. They can't just bang up a 30 sign and it become a 30 limit and many councils skimp on the paperwork.[;)]
Considering the circumstances you might like to vent your anger in the local press as well.[}:)]
Homer
Posts: 1503
Joined: 26 Feb 2003, 10:52
Location: Yorkshire
My Cars: Current:
Volvo V60 D4 180

Previous:
BX16RS (two of),
BX19TZI,
Xantia 2.0i saloon,
Xantia 2.0 Exclusive CT turbo Break,
Peugeot 807 2.0 HDi 110,
Renault Grand Scenic, 2.0 diesel (150bhp)
C5 X7 2.0 HDi 160 which put me off French cars possibly forever
x 16

Post by Homer »

Using the standard of five feet between marks and 0.5 seconds between flashes gives 40.9mph but ssomeone recently tested a number of Gatso's in the field and found they often have a much longer time between flashes.
See this page. Unfortunately the case never went anywhere since the defendant was never charged with speeding and was instead convicted under S172.
So if the time was 0.63 seconds instead of 0.5 your speed may have been "only" 32.4mph which is below ACPO prosecution guidelines and would not have got you a ticket from a real copper at 4 in the afternoon, never mind in the morning.
James.UK
Posts: 1169
Joined: 14 Dec 2003, 23:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 2

Post by James.UK »

Thank you once again Homer. I have asked a friend to visit the site and take some pics in daylight, to verify existance of any street lights that may not be in the pic.. I seem to recall there was a big country Pub with a large car park next to it somewhere close by.
I will reply to them when I have had time to look at the pictures my friend sends me :-)
Homer
Posts: 1503
Joined: 26 Feb 2003, 10:52
Location: Yorkshire
My Cars: Current:
Volvo V60 D4 180

Previous:
BX16RS (two of),
BX19TZI,
Xantia 2.0i saloon,
Xantia 2.0 Exclusive CT turbo Break,
Peugeot 807 2.0 HDi 110,
Renault Grand Scenic, 2.0 diesel (150bhp)
C5 X7 2.0 HDi 160 which put me off French cars possibly forever
x 16

Post by Homer »

Get them to measure the road markings if they can.
James.UK
Posts: 1169
Joined: 14 Dec 2003, 23:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 2

Post by James.UK »

Homer I did that, but forgot to mention it.. Sorry.. [:I] [V] I actually suggested he use a stick 5 ft long so as not to be in the road too long!

I also asked him to drive past a few times to see if he could work out the length of time between the two camera flashes, his reply to that request was extremely rude! and can't possibly be quoted here! [:0] [:o)] [:D] lol.
Oddly, when I scaned the pic they sent me I can now see where the tyres meet the road! The scan came out better than the original image? + I am now able to enlarge the images. [:o)]
It shows the first pic, (as near as I can guestimate) to be about 4ft past the first line. The 3nd pic to be about level with the 7th mark, so the car moved about 31 ft between the two pics, I think that supports their claim of 41 mph ish.. [V]
Pic also shows one of those 'painted islands' down the road centre. (twin lines of white dashes with diaganols between them)..
.
Homer
Posts: 1503
Joined: 26 Feb 2003, 10:52
Location: Yorkshire
My Cars: Current:
Volvo V60 D4 180

Previous:
BX16RS (two of),
BX19TZI,
Xantia 2.0i saloon,
Xantia 2.0 Exclusive CT turbo Break,
Peugeot 807 2.0 HDi 110,
Renault Grand Scenic, 2.0 diesel (150bhp)
C5 X7 2.0 HDi 160 which put me off French cars possibly forever
x 16

Post by Homer »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by James.UK</i>


It shows the first pic, (as near as I can guestimate) to be about 4ft past the first line. The 3nd pic to be about level with the 7th mark, so the car moved about 31 ft between the two pics, I think that supports their claim of 41 mph ish.. [V]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Only if the flash is .5 seconds.
After the case I linked to above the official guidelines mysteriously changed, from 0.5 seconds between photos, to between 0.5 and 0.7 seconds between photos.
Hopefully the actual timing can be found from the figures on the pics.
James.UK
Posts: 1169
Joined: 14 Dec 2003, 23:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 2

Post by James.UK »

Hi Homer ..I could easily alter the numbers on the pic, what numbers would you like? heh heh.. [}:)] [;)] lol.. trouble is so can everyone else.. tiny white blurry numbers in a black box with black background make alterations simple..
I have sent you the pics via email as per request. and again.. Thanks for your help.. [:)]
.
Homer
Posts: 1503
Joined: 26 Feb 2003, 10:52
Location: Yorkshire
My Cars: Current:
Volvo V60 D4 180

Previous:
BX16RS (two of),
BX19TZI,
Xantia 2.0i saloon,
Xantia 2.0 Exclusive CT turbo Break,
Peugeot 807 2.0 HDi 110,
Renault Grand Scenic, 2.0 diesel (150bhp)
C5 X7 2.0 HDi 160 which put me off French cars possibly forever
x 16

Post by Homer »

Thanks for the pics, they may have proved extremely helpful.
I have managed to dig up the website for the notsoaccurate guy.
I think you will find this interesting.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Recently is it has come to light that the police are able to infinitely adjust the delay period between the two strobe flashes from 0.50 to 0.70 seconds however the <b>time period which is recorded</b> on the photographic evidence is <b>always 0.50 seconds</b>,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
So just because it says 0.50 doesn't mean that is the actual time between flashes. What is more, even if it is 0.50 seconds today it does not mean it was on the day you passed the camera.
The radar can be affected by all sorts of things, which is why it needs the time and road markings as a secondary check. If the time on the photo can't be relied on then there is no admissable evidence.
I think you need to get in touch with David Edgar (the author of the above site), his email address is on this page.
Personally I think if you challenge the accuracy of the gatso and the flash time then they will quietly drop the case. If they don't and then lose it would be the end for the gatso.[;)]
Sl4yer
Posts: 849
Joined: 12 Apr 2003, 04:29
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 2

Post by Sl4yer »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Homer</i>

Recently is it has come to light that the police are able to infinitely adjust the delay period between the two strobe flashes from 0.50 to 0.70 seconds however the <b>time period which is recorded</b> on the photographic evidence is <b>always 0.50 seconds</b>,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
In court (rightly or wrongly), James will have to prove that the delay WAS NOT 0.5 seconds!
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Homer</i>

Personally I think if you challenge the accuracy of the gatso and the flash time then they will quietly drop the case. If they don't and then lose it would be the end for the gatso.[;)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Yes, they may quietly drop the case. Or fail to turn up on the day, inconveniencing James, but not convicting him. But lets face it, if the DO turn up, James will be convicted. He will face a higher penalty that if he accepted the Fixed Penalty notice.
One thing is for sure - if they DO turn up, they WON'T lose! James, by his own admission, is probably guilty of the offence. (Whether the offence is worth bothering about is a totally different matter).
I REALLY DESPISE speed cameras! REALLY! And I don't often shout... Luckily, the motorways where I do most of my miles are largely free of them, except in roadworks which is usually reasonable (especially if they are SPECS cameras).
Speed cameras spoil driving on the open road. I've seen the Truvelos hidden near Cranwell, and the Gatsos on the country roads in Cheshire. There can surely be no good reason for these! If it is operative outside a school in daylight hours, because there is a history of accidents or a particularly bad road layout, fair enough. (Although surely the road layout would usually be at fault).
But I've seen the Gatsos on the Blackpool Road in Preston only yards from a Pelican crossing. These only serve to distract the driver from the crossing. I know what is safest for me, and that is looking out the windscreen, not at the speedo.
I've read, and am convinced by, the arguments at http://www.safespeed.org. I know that speed cameras do not catch the most dangerous drivers. I know that the 'fact' that excess speed is a factor in most serious accidents is actually a myth (or even a lie!). But I'm also sure that James will be lucky to escape this, and that the satisfaction from challenging it will be short-lived. [:(!]
But best wishes from another James!
Homer
Posts: 1503
Joined: 26 Feb 2003, 10:52
Location: Yorkshire
My Cars: Current:
Volvo V60 D4 180

Previous:
BX16RS (two of),
BX19TZI,
Xantia 2.0i saloon,
Xantia 2.0 Exclusive CT turbo Break,
Peugeot 807 2.0 HDi 110,
Renault Grand Scenic, 2.0 diesel (150bhp)
C5 X7 2.0 HDi 160 which put me off French cars possibly forever
x 16

Post by Homer »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Sl4yer</i>

Luckily, the motorways where I do most of my miles are largely free of them, except in roadworks which is usually reasonable (especially if they are SPECS cameras).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Nearly two years ago the DfT did a study into motorway speed cameras at roadworks and they found that there was a 27% increase in accidents at roadworks with speed cameras, even SPECS. They sat on this report for 18 months. It took a FOI request from Paul Smith (of Safespeed) to get the report published. Despite this they still persist in using speed cameras at roadworks. The same report showed that having a police presence cut accidents by almost the same ammount. The difference being that police patrols don't make money.
bxbodger
Posts: 1455
Joined: 23 May 2003, 03:34
Location: Lovejoy country (Essex!!)
My Cars:
x 1

Post by bxbodger »

The problem with the roadworks cameras is that all you need to do is 40 or 50 or whatever all the way through :not difficult...... but you always get someone who slows right down to about 25 for the camera, boots it up to 60 or so straight after,then drives right up the butt of the driver in front, and then slams on the brakes 10 feet before the next camera- its as if they drive staring at their screen washer nozzles!!
This constant speeding up and sharp braking creates pulses and waves in heavy traffic which causes the accidents in roadworks....... and its the half-wits who do it that don't get caught up in the accidents!!!!
drpau
Posts: 330
Joined: 05 Oct 2004, 16:43
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:

Post by drpau »

I do find speed cameras like specs hinder your concentration on driving- so I would well agree with any claims about them causing accidents. I have to keep checking my speedometer much more frequently for fear of exceeding the limit and getting lumbered with points and therefore have my eyes on the road for less time meaning theres more chance for an accident.
Also on some motorways Ive seen stretches were they have lines on the road but no gatso's there- to act as a deterent for speeders. I have seen several people slam on when they see the lines potentially causing an accident.
Sl4yer
Posts: 849
Joined: 12 Apr 2003, 04:29
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 2

Post by Sl4yer »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by bxbodger</i>

The problem with the roadworks cameras is that all you need to do is 40 or 50 or whatever all the way through :not difficult...... but you always get someone who slows right down to about 25 for the camera, boots it up to 60 or so straight after,then drives right up the butt of the driver in front, and then slams on the brakes 10 feet before the next camera- its as if they drive staring at their screen washer nozzles!!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
This is true. A lot of people obviously don't know how SPECS cameras work! I feel like shouting "Too late suckers!" whenever they slam on for them... In fact I probably do! They even put signs on the M6 Cheshire roadworks saying "Your average speed is being monitored for the next x miles" or something to that effect.
The good thing about SPECS is that they slow ALL the traffic when the motorway is busy. So all you have to do is concentrate on keeping up with the traffic flow, with the occasional check on your speed.
Remember the 10%+2mph rule. The cameras (almost certainly)won't get you for less than 46mph, which will display as about 49mph on most speedos. So it really isn't hard to keep the speed down.
Homer
Posts: 1503
Joined: 26 Feb 2003, 10:52
Location: Yorkshire
My Cars: Current:
Volvo V60 D4 180

Previous:
BX16RS (two of),
BX19TZI,
Xantia 2.0i saloon,
Xantia 2.0 Exclusive CT turbo Break,
Peugeot 807 2.0 HDi 110,
Renault Grand Scenic, 2.0 diesel (150bhp)
C5 X7 2.0 HDi 160 which put me off French cars possibly forever
x 16

Post by Homer »

Sl4yer wrote: The good thing about SPECS is that they slow ALL the traffic when the motorway is busy.
Doesn't all the traffic slow all the traffic when the motorway is busy?

It does round here, you are lucky to get up to 30mph on the M62 during rush hour (which lasts most of the day).
James.UK
Posts: 1169
Joined: 14 Dec 2003, 23:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 2

Post by James.UK »

We mentioned this topic under the thread M25 about 2 days ago :roll: Bad idea!!, :(

I received a letter from the Central ticket office Dorset Police this morning. It reads as follows.--

Dear Sir/Madam,

With reference to the Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty issued to you, as no response has been received at this office, I must inform you that the matter is now being referred to the Traffic Prosecution Unit for consideration of prosecution.

Please contact this office if you have already responded to the notice according to the guidelines. .

Yours Faithfully,.........

I will not reply. I think a summons comes next? oeerr. :oops: :roll: I still intend to plead not guilty in order to obtain whatever evidence they may have.. Once I have had chance to read - look at it. I will then decide what my chances of winning my case in court are. If it doesn't look worth taking to court, then I will have to change my plea to one of guilty. :(
.
James. (Nr M67 East of Manchester).
Dark Blue ZX 1.9D Auto 1994 'L' 5 dr (modified) Aura. 98K miles used daily. Ave mpg 40
Wedgewood Blue 75 CTD auto Connoissaur. 2002. 144k. used daily. ave mpg 40 ish.
Post Reply