This has probably been discussed before but I'm not convinced about the HDi engines (apologies to any owners of them!). My G/F has just bought a 306 HDi 90 and I've owned one before as a company car, and TBH the economy isn't that great I've found and as soon as you boot them over 3k rpm they clatter like buggery in a really naff and tinny way.
The XUDT in my Xantia, is admittedly much louder and more clattery at idle, but during general driving is almost silent, and sounds quite meaty when revved. I also return about 42mpg on average but the missus is getting about the same from a HDi. Is this right? She does have a tendency of over-revving it (to 4k a lot of the time) but would this result in such a so called 'economical' engine giving very average mpg figures?
The HDi I've also found, hates you using the idle torque to pull you along in traffic. Say for example, you shove it in 1st and take your feet off all the pedals, my TurboD will pull, even in 2nd and even perhaps 3rd without complaint. Do that in her HDi and it shudders like hell. It almost feels like a smaller, much less beefy, almost petrol like engine. Anyone else have this or does this HDi 110 have the power to handle it?
HDi vs XUD
Moderator: RichardW
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Thunderbird
My Xantia's HDi 110 had no life and energy and felt like a 2.0 petrol engine, not liking low revs.
After tuning it feels like a V8 petrol. Can start moving in third. Usually drive at 1100-1200RPM with great response.
It's a day-night difference over original 110hp.
If you're not going to tune it I wouldn't recommend you a 2.0HDi, except if it's the new one from PSA/Ford, with 136/138Hp.
After tuning it feels like a V8 petrol. Can start moving in third. Usually drive at 1100-1200RPM with great response.
It's a day-night difference over original 110hp.
If you're not going to tune it I wouldn't recommend you a 2.0HDi, except if it's the new one from PSA/Ford, with 136/138Hp.
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Kowalski
- Posts: 2557
- Joined: 15 Oct 2003, 17:41
- Location: North East, United Kingdom
- My Cars: Ex 05 C5 2.0 HDI Exclusive 145k
Ex 97 Xantia 1.9TD SX 144k
Ex 94 Xantia Dimension 1.9TD 199k
The HDI should be a lot more economical than an XUD, the combined figures are 40ish for the XUD vs 50ish for the HDI. Driving style has a lot to do with economy, my mother drove one of my Xantias for about a month, and that was the second worst fuel economy I'd ever had. I only got down into the 30s (mpg wise) once and that was with a fuel leak but my mother seemed to manage it, she drives slowly but tends to be in the wrong gear a lot in fact it was an acheivement getting her to use 5th gear at all.
The XUD has a governer, all mechanical diesels used to. The governer tries to keep the engine going at a constant speed and the accelarator cable adjusts what speed the governer is trying to keep. The HDI doesn't have a governer as such, it's got a fly by wire accelarator and probably behaves like a petrol because of it. The HDI 90 and 110 won't be much different at idle, its not until the turbo gets involved that the 110 has more power/torque.
The XUD has a governer, all mechanical diesels used to. The governer tries to keep the engine going at a constant speed and the accelarator cable adjusts what speed the governer is trying to keep. The HDI doesn't have a governer as such, it's got a fly by wire accelarator and probably behaves like a petrol because of it. The HDI 90 and 110 won't be much different at idle, its not until the turbo gets involved that the 110 has more power/torque.
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Thunderbird
It's funny - I've just started a topic exactly like this that has been locked.
You ask the difference between the 2.1/1.9td and the 2.0hdi. I asked the difference between the 2.0HDi and the 2.7HDi (4 and 6 cilinders).
Probably the forum administratos haven't seen this topic yet and will block it as soon as they see it.
I am glad I could answer and thus help you before the topic is locked.
You ask the difference between the 2.1/1.9td and the 2.0hdi. I asked the difference between the 2.0HDi and the 2.7HDi (4 and 6 cilinders).
Probably the forum administratos haven't seen this topic yet and will block it as soon as they see it.
I am glad I could answer and thus help you before the topic is locked.
Ha ha! Nice...we shall see. I've been on other forums, and it depends on how the thread is worded and what mood the mods are in as to whether it gets locked or not. Also, they tended to move threads rather than lock them.
To answer your question on the other score, I used to have a BMW 320i before my Xantia which was a straight 6 24v. A 6 pot has an inherent smoothness as the pistons and crank are perfectly balanced, with the same number going up as are going down at all times. They are a bit better for higher mileage as the extra cylinder share the load, but I found they reduce fuel economy as the extra moving parts has increased momentum/ inertia. BMW made a 325TDS which was a 2.5l straight 6 turbo diesel with an intercooler and was eerily smooth. The newer 330d/530d/535d is the same. A V engine is not quite the same and requires balancer shafts to prevent vibrations. The only benefit there is that they save loads of space compared to a long straight 6.
As for the HDi, I've never actually driven a 110, but always wanted to. Apparently the 136bhp ones in the Ford are really laggy and not very usable, although do go well when wound up. My G/F's car does feel more sprightly than mine and much nippier, but her car probably weighs about half what mine does. Her engine is very quiet until you take it past 3000rpm and then all of a sudden, I assume the pre-injection is turned off because there is some awful injector clatter. I've tried telling her not to rev it but she seems intent on ignoring me! Sigh....
With the 110 being intercooled, is it much better in warmer weather than the 90? When I had my 306 HDi DTurbo it was really good at 13 degrees exactly....anything else and performance suffered a lot.
To answer your question on the other score, I used to have a BMW 320i before my Xantia which was a straight 6 24v. A 6 pot has an inherent smoothness as the pistons and crank are perfectly balanced, with the same number going up as are going down at all times. They are a bit better for higher mileage as the extra cylinder share the load, but I found they reduce fuel economy as the extra moving parts has increased momentum/ inertia. BMW made a 325TDS which was a 2.5l straight 6 turbo diesel with an intercooler and was eerily smooth. The newer 330d/530d/535d is the same. A V engine is not quite the same and requires balancer shafts to prevent vibrations. The only benefit there is that they save loads of space compared to a long straight 6.
As for the HDi, I've never actually driven a 110, but always wanted to. Apparently the 136bhp ones in the Ford are really laggy and not very usable, although do go well when wound up. My G/F's car does feel more sprightly than mine and much nippier, but her car probably weighs about half what mine does. Her engine is very quiet until you take it past 3000rpm and then all of a sudden, I assume the pre-injection is turned off because there is some awful injector clatter. I've tried telling her not to rev it but she seems intent on ignoring me! Sigh....
With the 110 being intercooled, is it much better in warmer weather than the 90? When I had my 306 HDi DTurbo it was really good at 13 degrees exactly....anything else and performance suffered a lot.
http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... C_ID=13735
<i>Please use <font color="blue">general chat</font id="blue"> forum to these kind of debates.</i>
<i>Please use <font color="blue">general chat</font id="blue"> forum to these kind of debates.</i>
It's the cost of repairing an HDi which puts me off. Reading threads on the forum about the price of injectors, dual-mass flywheels which break, engine-management chips etc is scary. Even the crankshaft pulley wears its rubber coating and costs something like £90 to replace.
I'll admit, I'm a bit of a luddite, but I get 50 to 55mpg out of my XUD Xsara on my motorway commute, and the engine gets better as the miles rack up. So unless it gets stuffed, I won't be changing.
I'll admit, I'm a bit of a luddite, but I get 50 to 55mpg out of my XUD Xsara on my motorway commute, and the engine gets better as the miles rack up. So unless it gets stuffed, I won't be changing.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ralph</i> Even the crankshaft pulley wears its rubber coating and costs something like £90 to replace. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">The pulley is supposed to be replaced as part of the scheduled cambelt replacement and only gives trouble if a tightwad owner has the job done on the cheap and leaves it so is not really a fauklt as such.
And it's not like the XUDs were cheap to repair either. My old XUD17 equipped 405 GRDt originally had the Lucas fuel pump and after this mysteriously lunched itself but Mucus wanted £700 for a new one, and this was <i>way</i> back when. I ended up buying a write off for £50 and paying to have a Bosch transplant in the end.
Certain XUDs suffered HGF & head cracking, both of which are virtually unheard of on HDis.
And some XUDs had the devillish black boxes as well - the 2.1 and the later 1.9s in the 406s were semi-electronic, so had the worst of both worlds for little tangible benefit.
I don't think there's much to pick between the 2 - they're both pretty sturdy, probably above average for durability, but neither without their faults. When it comes down to it, when something mechanical but immensely complicated and finely manufactured (like a diesel pump) fails, it's likely to be just as expensive and troublesome to replace as a black box, and for all tyhe hype very few places would actually effect such a repair as they'd just slap on a new unit.
And it's not like the XUDs were cheap to repair either. My old XUD17 equipped 405 GRDt originally had the Lucas fuel pump and after this mysteriously lunched itself but Mucus wanted £700 for a new one, and this was <i>way</i> back when. I ended up buying a write off for £50 and paying to have a Bosch transplant in the end.
Certain XUDs suffered HGF & head cracking, both of which are virtually unheard of on HDis.
And some XUDs had the devillish black boxes as well - the 2.1 and the later 1.9s in the 406s were semi-electronic, so had the worst of both worlds for little tangible benefit.
I don't think there's much to pick between the 2 - they're both pretty sturdy, probably above average for durability, but neither without their faults. When it comes down to it, when something mechanical but immensely complicated and finely manufactured (like a diesel pump) fails, it's likely to be just as expensive and troublesome to replace as a black box, and for all tyhe hype very few places would actually effect such a repair as they'd just slap on a new unit.
I shall be able to do a direct comparison between the 2.I`m getting my Dad`s company 406 HDI 110 est tomorrow for 3 weeks,so will be able to see how the fuel goes etc.Having driven it before,the engine seems to pull stronger than mine,but runs out of puff quicker than mine.Its been 3 yrs since mine was boosted,so proberly isnt 115 bhp anymore.I get about 42 mpg from mine,so will be able to see how the HDI goes.Off on holiday with the caravan & the 406 tomorrow,so that will be a good test.Will post when i get back.
Thanks Richard!!![:D]
No such leaks last w/end,just droped a little.Started fine,ran fine around the block.Been sitting again all this week & will be next week as well.
Anyway,the 406.
Its doing about 51mpg at the moment,about 8 more than my Xantia.
As you said Chrispy,this one shudders along on idle,unlike my XUD,which is fine in 1,2 & 3rd gears.This one just shakes you along.I think noise wise there about the same.But the HDI pulls better.
Overall,i like my Xantia better.The seats & ride are far better than the 406,build quality is better in my Xantia aswell.
Now,if only i could find a late Xantia est Exculsive with the 110 HDI![:D]
No such leaks last w/end,just droped a little.Started fine,ran fine around the block.Been sitting again all this week & will be next week as well.
Anyway,the 406.
Its doing about 51mpg at the moment,about 8 more than my Xantia.
As you said Chrispy,this one shudders along on idle,unlike my XUD,which is fine in 1,2 & 3rd gears.This one just shakes you along.I think noise wise there about the same.But the HDI pulls better.
Overall,i like my Xantia better.The seats & ride are far better than the 406,build quality is better in my Xantia aswell.
Now,if only i could find a late Xantia est Exculsive with the 110 HDI![:D]