EuroStazi State want spy in every car

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Forth
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EuroStazi State want spy in every car

Post by Forth »

February 27, 2005
<font color="teal"><i>Sunday Times</i></font id="teal">
<b><font color="red">Europe wants a black-box speed spy in every car</font id="red"></b>
<font color="teal"><i>Maurice Chittenden</i></font id="teal">
Black box recorders could be installed in all new cars under a European Union ruling. The aircraft-style equipment would also act as a tracker, using global positioning satellites to record the location and route of a vehicle and to tell how fast a driver is going and whether seatbelts are being worn.
Data recovered from the boxes could give investigators important clues on how accidents are caused. However, British motoring groups fear the technology could be used by government to introduce a national congestion charge or to keep tabs on people’s movements.
The European commission has asked the police forces of member states to look at whether the technology could improve road safety. Every year about 50,000 people are killed on European roads and another 3.5m are injured. If, as expected, the police give their backing, manufacturers would be required to install black boxes in all new cars by 2009.
The National Transportation Safety Board in America also wants to make them mandatory by the same date. Already 15% of vehicles in the US are fitted with the palm-sized devices. Most new cars there have them fitted as standard. Many police forces in Britain have already adopted the technology in their patrol cars to reduce the number of accidents and to explain what happened when high-sped chases result in fatal collisions. Courier companies have also begun installing the recorders to remotely monitor their vehicles.
The black boxes in cars are expected to cost between £200 and £300 but drivers might be able to reduce their motoring insurance if they can use the recorders to prove they do not drive fast or at night.
One insurance company, Norwich Union, has already introduced a “pay-as-you-drive” system for young drivers that can cut their premiums by up to 30% if they can show they do not drive between 11pm and 6am, the most dangerous time for them to be on the road.
The equipment would also include “eCall” technology to ring for police and an ambulance automatically in the event of an accident.
A European commission spokesman said yesterday: “There is huge potential for the deployment of this technology. Benefits would far outweigh any costs.
“The motor industry is fully involved in, and supportive of, this initiative.”
But Edmund King, director of the RAC Foundation, said: “If it is a voluntary system and the black box reduces your insurance premiums, that is fine.
“But there is a difference between that and a compulsory system imposed by the EU that tracks cars. There would be opposition if it was Big Brother in the car monitoring our every move.”
He added: “There is already so much technology in car engines that it is possible for accident investigators to work out how fast a car was going and when it started braking.”
jeremy
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Post by jeremy »

We already have a government who think they should be able to imprison us without trial!
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oilyspanner
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Post by oilyspanner »

Apparently some ECUs store information already, was told a tale about a bloke with a Mclaren F1 who was prone to giving it serious welly on his way to work, when he took it for a service they told him "not many people give em that much welly every day!" big brother is already watching, A mate in the states has just bought a GMC wagon and GMC call you up to check you are okay if it senses that you have had a minor prang in it, its GPS tells them where you are too. how about citroen calling up in the event of an LHM leak!
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Post by vanny »

No bloody way do i want one!
Its bad enough being in a modern car and praying that one of the stupid computers is gonna die and send the car into a flat spin or turn the lights off in the middle of the night, or put the car in limp mode while at high speeds! It's one of the biggest factors slowing my uptake of HDi and there stupid computers, but having to worry about a stupid black box that is gonna tell on me if i dont have my seat belt on before i start the engine then i dont want one.
When will the govenrment realise that the solution is to take illegal cars of the road? You know the ones without insurance because the driver is so incapable of driving, the trashed and thrashed ones with no exhausts/windows etc, and the little tykes who dont have a license and cant reach the top shelves. Then remove those who are totally in capable of driving regardless of having a license, i think you'd see a huge improvement in driving quality, reduction in raod rage, and eventually a lot less accidents!
God damn europeans!
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Post by PowerLee »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by oilyspanner</i>

Apparently some ECUs store information already, was told a tale about a bloke with a Mclaren F1 who was prone to giving it serious welly on his way to work, when he took it for a service they told him "not many people give em that much welly every day!"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The bloke with the Mclaren F1 was in Germany, He had a fault flagged up on the display, Pressed the service button which contacts Mclaren directly & they rang him back & queried the average speed the car had recorded.
He answered " I travel down the autobarn to work everyday " lol
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Post by bxbodger »

I don't know what the fear is of having computerised systems in cars- the modern car is a zillion times more reliable, and much more capable of mega-mileage, than those of 20 years ago. Cars just don't break down like they used too!!!
Don't worry about the electronics Vanny, don't let them put you off: It is very rare that they go wrong- the faults they do suffer are the age old ones of sloppy maintenance and dirty connections. I remember my first cars: contact breaker points, condensors, vacuum advances, carburretors ( Ford VV horror, anyone? ) belt driven fans, oily plugs, and no way do I ever want to go back to that for every day motoring!!!
As someone, I can't remember who, once said, the past is another country!! A great place to visit for a hobby, but not to live in!!!
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Post by tomsheppard »

So the manufacturers offer them and new car sales stop dead.
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Post by PowerLee »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by bxbodger</i>

I don't know what the fear is of having computerised systems in cars- the modern car is a zillion times more reliable, and much more capable of mega-mileage, than those of 20 years ago. Cars just don't break down like they used too!!!
Don't worry about the electronics Vanny, don't let them put you off: It is very rare that they go wrong- the faults they do suffer are the age old ones of sloppy maintenance and dirty connections. I remember my first cars: contact breaker points, condensors, vacuum advances, carburretors ( Ford VV horror, anyone? ) belt driven fans, oily plugs, and no way do I ever want to go back to that for every day motoring!!!
As someone, I can't remember who, once said, the past is another country!! A great place to visit for a hobby, but not to live in!!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
What a load of rubbish, Modern cars are a lot worse for leaving you stranded then cars from just 10 years ago.
The rep at work has a 52 plate Laguna, Thats broken down about 6 times due to the software failing & Im not counting all the other times it has have to be towed back to a Renault dealer.
Also, How many software recalls has Peugeot issued on the 206 & 307 to date?
Electronics & cars dont really mix!
Im not having a go, But the amount of trouble new French cars give with electrical faults is awful.
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Post by vanny »

I totally agree that the electrics are not a good thing. Whats wrong with having an ingenious mechanical or even hydraulic system instead of making everything electronic. Most of these new systems aren't fully tested the way they used to be and hence they have volatile memory that can be rewritten as and when faults are found. There's been posts on this site about dodgy C5's needed there computers regularly reinstalled, why even bother giving the ECU's a way of being rewritten if they hevnt been fully tested.
Three years of an electronics degree tell me that the type and nature of the electronics on modern cars is totally rediculous, there's no way i would buy one without a lot of manufacture warranty.
Electronics deffinately deserve a place on cars, there are a lot of possibilities that can only be realised by the addition of complex electronics, but none of this Microsoft style 'lets role it out now and fix it later'. Lets face it i never heard of a mechanical diesel having a major electrical fault (well maybe the odd stop solenoid!).
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Post by oilyspanner »

I am coming to terms with it, I own a purely mechanically controlled fleet of motors but, while I dislike computers in my car ....its only because I dont have connectivity, if the ECU had a USB port on the top where I could access and control/backup the software then I might feel a bit different.
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Post by bxbodger »

The bad period for car electronics, which is where I think the scarey reputation comes from, was the early eighties- the hybrid electronic/mechanical SU carb set-up springs to my mind, along with electro-merchanical distributors and that strange Ford ignition set up on early Mk 3 Fiestas. All a bit too clever for its own good at the time!
The black boxes are not a problem.As I said before, its the same old things that have plagued electric bits in cars for years that cause trouble- dirty connectors, chafing wires, dodgy sensors not giving the boxes correct info- It is extremely rare that an ECU itself is at fault, and how often, out of the millions fitted, do airbags go off because of control system faults?
Look how many people on the forum have sorted ABS problems easily at home- I remember when ABS first appeared people were terrified of it going wrong, no doubt in the past people had the same attitude to other new fangled stuff such as disc brakes and alternators!!!
No-one with a Citroen need be scared of technology!!!!
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Post by vanny »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by bxbodger</i>

The bad period for car electronics, which is where I think the scarey reputation comes from, was the early eighties <snip> The black boxes are not a problem.As I said before, its the same old things that have plagued electric bits in cars for years that cause trouble <snip> It is extremely rare that an ECU itself is at fault<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Im assuming then you have never looked at the problem with the Ford Explorer! Albeit mostly an american car, and seemingly only a problem the the automatics, the 'black box' ECU is located in the engine bay and under the correct temperatures/humidity etc the software crashes and what ever the gas pedal was at when it crashes stays that way! There are hundreds of cases where the gas pedal has 'stuck' and in severe cases sent the Fords through tthe sides of buildings etc
The Ford Explorers in question arent from the 80's but the 90's and that still doesn't explain why car manufacturers find need to bring out new software versions for a car ECU several months after it was released to the general public, unless there is a very real problem with the ECU technology currently used.
As for technology of the 80's being a little dodgy i totally disagree. Some of the greatest cars of the 80's where based on the MOTRONIC systems (specifically the 3 and 4 series) everything from the BXgti's and BX16v's to the BMW 300 series, and i'm yet to come upon a problem where the original, base software was a problem!
IT these days is driven by roll out and NOT perfection, and in just the same way MS dont check there software and have to bring out service pack after service pack, car manufacturers dont make totally sure there computer software works and have to bring out update after update!
I'd rather stick with a 13 year old car that i know after 13yrs isnt suddenly gonna switch off from a software problem, than get a new computerised car and have to be reflashed every other week!
And i certainly dont want to have to worry about having some little black box tells some beurocrat how i drive my car when most of the instant reactions required in driving that often lead to crossing lanes or speeding up are caused by some other numpty who cant drive!
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Post by bxbodger »

Having had some dealings with a neighbours Neon, I wouldn't put Yank cars up as a paragon of electronic technology they seem to be years behind Japan and Korea- the installation is just rubbish!!! The Far East seems to have got the hang of it a lot quicker than Europe has.
I still think its nothing to be scared of- the problems come from inadequate understanding by the main dealers- they don't pay the grease monkeys enough and they don't train them up properly, with the result that they try to fix things by substitution, which is an expensive way of doing it.
The answer is, as with a lot of Citroen problems, if you can't fix it go to an independant, and NOT a main dealer. Every town now has someone who understands how to sort management system faults, and, like it or not, we are all going to have to learn about them sooner or later!!!
I take the point about software, but thats software, and not hardware!!!Put petrol in your diesel and it'll run, just not well, its the equivelant of poor software. Any properly sorted fully electronic system will always be more reliable and much cheaper to make than a mechanical system. I'm no aircraft buff, but I did read somewhere that the Stealth bomber is almost unaerodynamic, and cannot be flown by the seat of the pants as it were-its just too difficult and complex, and the computors have to constantly adjust the wing surfaces just to keep it in the air.
Back to the original point about black boxes tracking our movements, i don't think a lot of people know it, but if you have a GSM mobile, and everyone has, the grey men can already do this, should they want too.............
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Post by Kowalski »

You can be tracked by your mobile phone, GSM can be used to give a rough position and an average speed.
What they can't do is detect enthusiastic driving. I'm sure quite a few of the members of this forum wouldn't want measuring whilst they're out LEGALLY enjoying their cars.
I think black boxes linked to insurance premiums would be a good thing, especially if the box could detect bad driving and financially punish the perpetrator appropriately.
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Post by TomH »

bloody car electrics! My car currently stalls from the shock if I turn the heater fan onto full too quickly... what's that about? Well, either stalls or the rev counter dial goes haywire and the engine management light comes on either way
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