Old cars - love em or hate em?

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Old cars - love em or hate em?

Post by martyhopkirk » 05 Nov 2004, 02:45

http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... C_ID=10003
Seems to have turned into a bit of a my car is better than your car debate.
One poor lad wonderd whether it was worth preserving a povvy spec AX and seems to have been lambasted a bit by people saying its not worth it. I disagree. without the preservation of all types of car what will future generations have to remember automotive development by? My mate Bob is restoring his first motor (a 1937 Morris 8) and his feeling is everything after 1960 isnt a classic, I disagree and as a child of the 70's i have fond memories of many 60's and 70's cars as well as cars i have owned up to now.
So should we be encouraging the care and presavation of poverty spec AX, ZX, BX, CX etc cars for the future? Or do we just preserve the exceiting ones (Volcane, GTi etc?)
Sorry for the monologue - but I do feel that too many bread and butter motors have been lost forever due to apathy. Anyway thats my twopennorth!


Post by Jon » 05 Nov 2004, 02:55

This is a tricky one. As someone born in 1967 (gulp) I do share a great nostalgia for cars of the late 60's era and the entire 1970's. I now actively desire a Cortina 1600E, a 1973 GS 1220 Club and very badly a 1973 Ami Super Estate. I however do not have any interest in the Marina, the Maxi, the Allaggro, the LNA or the Acclaim. I could definately get my head round the R14TS (if any survived). I have no problem in buying and reading Classics, Practical Classics and Practical Performance Car month by month, and you certainly won't find me ever buying or reading any "modern" car mag.
In conclusion, I love reading about old cars, whatever the make. In terms of ownership however, the car has to be different, or have something about it to make it different from the run of the mill.
In terms of the AX, I did actually own a new (then) AX GT for about 6 months in 1989. It was quite quick yet insubstantial, and the brakes were worrying. I sold it and used the money for a house deposit and a £200 quid W reg GSA Club. Nuff said.[:(]


Post by martyhopkirk » 05 Nov 2004, 03:07

If I had the space / time / money I would be off to restore my old Y plate Maestro 1.3 (in BEIGE!!!)
Underpowered, un loved by many but a fantastic workhorse which helped me move house (twice) build a patio and an extension and had enough room to house a family of four under the bonet and still keep the A series in place. Happy days! Finally died a death at the hands / wheels of a Leyland Roadrunner - (And I escaped without a mark on me!).
Yep, I know i am in a minority (of one probably) but somebody somewhere must love them - they are now building this weird Montego - Maestro hybrid in China so they must like them, actually didnt hey build a ZX as well?

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Post by ralph » 05 Nov 2004, 03:26

Aye, and some Chinese ZXs even have a boot. As for a Maestro, if you're going to do it, do it properly: a 1275cc metal-bumpered poverty-spec version, once driven by grandads everywhere.
What about Pug 205 turbo diesels? I'm surprised there seems no interest in them. They've got the turbo'd XUD engine everyone loves and the classic 205 looks - especially in 3-door form. Yet I see few threads about them on the Pug forum, and nothing about people boosting them up. I'd swap my wheezy 205 GLD for one any day.

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Post by VisaGTi16v » 05 Nov 2004, 03:33

My Visa is coming up for 19 years old and as im only (!) 27 thats quite old compared to me :)

alan s
RIP 2010
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Post by alan s » 05 Nov 2004, 04:02

It's often the cars considered the least collectable that end up being the most sought after, mainly due to the fact that nobody bothered to hang on to them.
How many Ford Edsell's do you see at car shows? What about the Standard 10, Triumph Herald or in more recent times, the Trabbant? It seems that anything that wasn't popular when it was new or sold well but wasn't accepted in the market place as anything more than a cheap form of transport as a second car, inevitable ends up as the most desireable thing for collectore.
We had a thing out here called a "Lightburn Zeta" that was made by a company that made cement mixers of all things whilst the 'Goggomobile Dart' was made famous in a commercial and is now priceless. Both were tiny gutless two strokes that you couldn't give away.
How about Indian & Harley motorbikes and ex Army BSAs? As a young fellow I owned a couple of bikes and on more than one occasion knocked back offers on both those brands of early model "quirky Yank bikes" with gear levers and foot operated clutches and everything that worked backwards to the English Triumphs, BSA, AJS, Nortons etc at the going rate in those days of 15 quid [:0][:0][:0]
What would a 1942 Harley with leather bags be worth today??? Betcha can't find one though!!
Alan S [:(]

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Post by VisaGTi16v » 05 Nov 2004, 05:11

ford edsell? :D I did see an immaculate hillman imp in the local retail area car park last weekend. Dont see many of them these days. A car ive always wanted although I dont know if its old enough to be considered a classic or whatever is a Dolomite Sprint. My parents had a 1500HL for a while.

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Post by ghostrider » 05 Nov 2004, 05:35

With the way the classic car market is, the only reason for doing it is because a particular car does it for you, the 80s resulted in loads of cars being restored as investments, some of the prices paid seem a bit daft now, and as others have observed, only the upper spec cars got the treatment. I have held on to various vehicles over the years in the hope that they would become valuable enough to restore ( GS CX DS Triumph T150V m/c etc) most of them have never got to the point where their value reflects even the cost of the parts to do it let alone the time you put in.
So do it because you love it, it doesn't really matter what others think, after all most of my mates wouldn't give anything for any form of citroen, classic or otherwise. I have a friend who regards her LNA as the best car bar none, she's owned it from new. Now it does nothing for me but who am I to say she's wasting her money? If it wasn't for people who love these cars, there probably wouldn't be any left.
People like Vanny etc will keep the BX alive, I love mine dearly but it simply does not get far enough up my list of things I want to spend time on ever to get the necessary time spent on it, a car is more than transport to me, but not like it used to be, when I spent every spare moment working on old cits, partly because I couldn't afford anything better, partly because I loved the car, and partly because I believed that one day they would be worth more than I had invested in them.
when I was at school I ran BSA Gold Stars, Manx Nortons, Vincents, and all sorts of other so called exotica, why? because they were dirt cheap and no one wanted them. I could have held on to them and yes some are worth a fortune now, but I would also of had a garage full of stuff that is still worth barely more than scrap value. As an investment you need second sight, and a lot of luck, look at the DS, you still need the "right" model for it to have real value. A mate of mine kept his ID19 until about 10 years ago in the belief that because it was one of the first ones it had to be collectable, but his favourite was a very late DS23, in nearly every respect a better car, and despite spending a fortune on restoring it, when the time came to get rid of it, he struggled to sell it.
Last edited by ghostrider on 22 Feb 2011, 06:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Robin » 05 Nov 2004, 15:22

Ghostrider, such a lot of sense in there. Right now I have an allegro in the barn with a 1500 engine. Free to anyone who wants it, but who wants an Allegro? Have tried giving it away for the last two years but no joy. I refuse to see it scrapped because it will be useful to someone one day. My other interest is old marine engines and today it is a race to try and collect up all the remaining spares before they get thrown away. Intentional obsolescence by those wnating to sell new engines. It is considered criminal by those in the system but good business if you sell engines.
The availability of spares also reflects the value of the vehicle, so while it is very nice to have all the spares it also keeps the values down. This is the period we all enjoy, cheap to buy maintain and generally run.
My age is such that I ran an Austin Healey at the time when they were playthings and cheap, sold it because I could get a better motor with tread on the tyres!
We should try and keep the vehicles available but the cost and logistics of doing so will mean it is a specialist or madmans territory. My partner in crime has a fully loaded Range Rover LSE with less than 30k miles on it. Immaculate it is. Only comes out in the dry and never goes on the grass let alone in the mud heaven forbid. Value at 9 years old, about 8k. Sell it or keep it? Personally I would love to use it but the 4.6 litre petrol bit put's me off.
This will be tomorrows collectors car if it can be kept in this condition, but that costs money.
My two penneth too! Robin

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Post by bxbodger » 05 Nov 2004, 16:30

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">but who wants an Allegro? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Try here;
Personally, I think the Allegro deserves saving because it does comfy ride as well as Citroen, and due to having front arms/displacers rather than struts, better than the BX/Xantia.It also does it without the need for a pump or sphere/fluid changes, and, a big plus, I could do a clutch in 45 minutes!
I went through several when they were cheap and unfashionable ( a bit like my current ride, the BX....)and would have another tomorrow if I had the space!!
But then again...I remember all the horror jobs like shimming the balljoints, changing the knuckles.............

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Post by TomH » 05 Nov 2004, 18:47

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by martyhopkirk</i>

Yep, I know i am in a minority (of one probably) but somebody somewhere must love them - they are now building this weird Montego - Maestro hybrid in China so they must like them, actually didnt hey build a ZX as well?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
ah yes, the "Fukang"... careful how you say it!!

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Post by tomsheppard » 05 Nov 2004, 20:25

I suppose that having grown up car mad, I would have been nostalgic about old cars. As it is, I find myself more interested in the engineering than the shape so
Panhard, yes. Mini, Maybe.
Allegro, Minor, Oxcam,Triumph, Vauxhall, Rootes, you have to be kidding!
Landcrab: yes; Unsurpased to this day for solidity and space efficiency
Any sixties Ford more than 41" tall, no.
Spridgefire/ MG/ TR, Alpine, No, no, no!
Rover P4,5,6 Yes.
Most Fiats, Yes. (The Cambelt started here with the 124 engine. Based on an MV Agusta and reworked by Lampredi, A Great engine)
E-type- Yes. (It is in the rules.)
Most Citroens post Traction, naturally.
But otherwise, nothing much appeals.
There are a lot of interesting cars out there but few that have really contributed much to the game. The Minor steered but didn't stop, Triumphs had IRS but it didn't stop them falling off the road, you seee what I mean. So you end up with
The DS
The Model T
Um, That's it. And I thought I liked old cars!

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Post by DoubleChevron » 06 Nov 2004, 17:28

Hi Guys,
well I personally think there's a point where it's just not possible to have any more old cars. Eg. I have about 1/2dozen CX's, 1/2dozen DS's/ID's, a couple of GS's, a BX, a xantia .... etc...
Now really there is point where just one person with little $$$ and hardly any time can keep/restore that many cars. I certainly don't want any more cars. I think I'll just keep an early CX2400 C-matic, the CX 2500 GTi Turbo and the DS21ie. These cars need considerable work themselves... I'd ONLY take parts cars now ... there just isn't enough time in any one lifetime to restore/upkeep them all. Plus the costs of keeping them on the road (I mean registration and insurance) is very restrictive.
However I could would be extremely tempted if I was offered a nice early DS19 [:D] (though i guess that would mean I would then have to either get rid of my '63 ID19 or use it as a parts car).
Shane L.


Post by martyhopkirk » 07 Nov 2004, 14:02

It wasn't necessarily (very) old cars Shane, just cars in general really. I felt a bit sorry for the lad who wanted to keep and restore - possibly out of sentimental value - a poverty spec AX only to be told by quite a few forum menbers thts it wasnt worth saving this car. But i do know what your saying, how much money and how much space / time can we devote to saving a car? Seems a shame though to break a ID19 to save a DS19, especially if the ID is sound, (yes i know its hypothetical at the moment, but it may not be in the future).
Anyway I'm still on the lookout for
a) a daily driver to murder instead of my clapped ZX and:
b) a Dyane - just joined 2cvgb so Im hopefull i will find one fairly soon.
Im ashamed to say that i am even considering the 1.5PSA engined Rover Metro as a daily driver.

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Post by DLM » 08 Nov 2004, 23:35

I find it a shame that something like the AX or BX with considerable potential utility should be scrapped in favour of the automotive equivelant of a pair of white stilettos or a pair of particularly brash trainers but then some (do) call me an eccentric. Apologies for the footwear analogy but it's all I could come up with. I also realise some might also compare the BX to a pair of mutant, incontinent Hush Puppies.....
I also have a soft spot for the old austin 1100/1300 as variously ritually abused by John Cleese (Fawlty Towers, Clockwise) but it's probably easier to just obtain the equivalent amount of iron oxide that they corrode into.
But then, one man's MG is another man's Perodua/one man's Maestro is another man's Panhard.