At the risk of being shot - Eolys fluid again

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At the risk of being shot - Eolys fluid again

Postby PompeyLad » 01 Aug 2016, 20:55

I have read all that I can find on Frenchcarforum and other sites about the eolys system and how to replenish it.

There's a huge amount of info on this site, but I'm still confused about one issue, namely that if I top up the eolys in my C5 2006 HDI 138, and do it before any warning appears, is an ECU reset required?

Some opinion says that the smart Alec ECU has counted each filler cap removal, but it doesn't know how much fuel went in each time, does it? And I understand a fixed amount of eolys is injected at each refuel. So doesn't the system rely simply on the low level warning in the additive tank to spring into life and demand a top-up and reset?

The eolys tank on my C5 has about 2 litres left in it. I regularly do long runs to France and don't want to get caught short, so figured to top it up in my own time before any warning. I've just ordered 2 litres of fluid plus a kit.

Bottom line - will I need an ECU reset?

I promise not to bring up eolys again after this topic!

Cheers
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Re: At the risk of being shot - Eolys fluid again

Postby Stickyfinger » 01 Aug 2016, 21:18

2ltr left.....why bother topping up ?....you have many many 1000's of mile left ib there
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Re: At the risk of being shot - Eolys fluid again

Postby PompeyLad » 02 Aug 2016, 19:44

Naturally I didn't get an exact figure for the amount left and it was at least a couple of k's+ ago, so it's a precaution.

The car has done 90k now, so well into the 'range' for top-up.

But will I need to do a reset anyway? Is the ECU that clever?
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Re: At the risk of being shot - Eolys fluid again

Postby myglaren » 02 Aug 2016, 20:08

viewtopic.php?t=55237

There was someone recently (past couple of weeks) with a similar question.
If I remember correctly after filling the tank he tried and failed to get the Lexia to reset but then after the car had been started a couple of time it reset itself.
Did a search but came up with zilch :(
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Re: At the risk of being shot - Eolys fluid again

Postby PompeyLad » 04 Aug 2016, 21:26

Thanks for that, all the previous questions I could find seemed to include a warning having been seen before topping up.
Shall try it and see! Hope my car is as clever - don't have a Lexia or access to one anyway.

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Re: At the risk of being shot - Eolys fluid again

Postby PompeyLad » 09 Aug 2016, 22:54

Successfully added 2 litres of Eolys (PAT) fluid today. I was puzzled to find the connector indicator colour was white on my 2006 C5 2.0 HDI DOC; was expecting green.
However, 2 litres went in easily with the kit I purchased (it would probably have taken 3), once I blanked off the disconnected coupling. The pipe connection at the back was a bonus as the car was on rear axle stands so the remaining fluid went to the front of the tank.

Car started fine afterwards with no warning or other indications. So, if my car is typical, topping-up before the arrival of a warning avoids any further action (at least so far). I guess I'll know for sure the next time I put in fuel.

Lastly, the fluid mixes easily with water, which was a surprise. I washed both containers out with hot water and washing-up liquid and any oil was neutralised.

Thanks for help and advice!
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Re: At the risk of being shot - Eolys fluid again

Postby cachaciero » 10 Aug 2016, 11:47

PompeyLad wrote:I have read all that I can find on Frenchcarforum and other sites about the eolys system and how to replenish it.

There's a huge amount of info on this site, but I'm still confused about one issue, namely that if I top up the eolys in my C5 2006 HDI 138, and do it before any warning appears, is an ECU reset required?

Some opinion says that the smart Alec ECU has counted each filler cap removal, but it doesn't know how much fuel went in each time, does it? And I understand a fixed amount of eolys is injected at each refuel. So doesn't the system rely simply on the low level warning in the additive tank to spring into life and demand a top-up and reset?


Not opinion fact: the ECU calculates the amount of fuel added each time the cap is removed with the previso that just removing and re-fitting the cap it assumes a minimum of 10 litres, it then calculates and injects the required amount of additive into the fuel tank i.e it is NOT a fixed injection amount.
There is no low level sensor on cars using EOLYS176 the system calculates low level by the amount injected, if you add fluid without resetting the counter then at some point you will get a low level warning even though you still have more than a litre in the tank.

The eolys tank on my C5 has about 2 litres left in it. I regularly do long runs to France and don't want to get caught short, so figured to top it up in my own time before any warning. I've just ordered 2 litres of fluid plus a kit.

Bottom line - will I need an ECU reset?


At some point see explanation above

I promise not to bring up eolys again after this topic!

Cheers


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Re: At the risk of being shot - Eolys fluid again

Postby PompeyLad » 10 Aug 2016, 23:29

What you're saying is that the large differences in the mileages that the 'eolys low' warning appears in different cars is solely down to the mpg achieved. So if we all got 45 mpg, the warning would appear after X miles?
I'm not doubting you, but that's the first time I've seen it stated so clearly!

PL
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Re: At the risk of being shot - Eolys fluid again

Postby cachaciero » 11 Aug 2016, 08:08

PompeyLad wrote:What you're saying is that the large differences in the mileages that the 'eolys low' warning appears in different cars is solely down to the mpg achieved. So if we all got 45 mpg, the warning would appear after X miles?
I'm not doubting you, but that's the first time I've seen it stated so clearly!

PL

In part, however the "filling" patterns also play a part too. Imagine that all cars do 45 mpg one owner A fills up regularly with 5 litres at a time and owner B regularly fills up with 20 litres.
Owner A would find that he would get less additive mileage simply because the system will dose for 10 litres i.e overdose, owner B will do much better because the system will dose for 20 litres.
This is all a bit theoretical because the 10 litre figure is apparently the limits of accuracy of the fuel measuring system at low fuel tank levels i.e close to empty so I guess that on some cars it might see a 20 litre fuel addition as 15 while on others it might see it as 25 or even thirty.
My understanding is that the biggest error in fuel measurement is at the low end, however there is an inaccuracy, a tolerance if you like and even a 1 litre difference between two cars would give a substantial difference in ultimate additive mileage.
The message to take away from this is that you will almost certainly get better additive consumption by taking on large amounts of fuel at each fill and running the tank down to low level before filling. (should minimize fuel gauging errors).

Another reason for the discrepancy may well be because of incorrect maintenance i.e not filling the additive tank completely and not correctly re-setting the ECU counters, pretty well what you have done :-)

Finally another little "gotcher", magnet falling out of the filler cap.
There are two magnets in the filler cap loss of both means that there will not be any additive injection at all with resultant quick coking (or not) of the filter, or more commonalty the loss of one magnet which means depending on how the cap is fitted it will inject additive on some occasions but not others, obviously this will give a large variation in additive used. These magnets appear to fall out relatively easily at least in my case so not a bad idea to check the cap on a regular basis because there is no warning that the system is not working correctly.

Even with no additive treated fuel if the car is routinely used on journeys where the engine is up to temperature and is working hard then exhaust temps may well reach high enough temps to burn of the carbon in the filter.

EDIT clarification of 10 litre error.

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Last edited by cachaciero on 12 Aug 2016, 08:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: At the risk of being shot - Eolys fluid again

Postby white exec » 11 Aug 2016, 09:40

The more I read of this, the more I just sigh in disbelief.
How on earth was such a system cobbled together, from start to finish?
Obviously a good earner for the service agents which are usually involved. Probably a major motivation.
Thank goodness XM isn't plagued with this.

There may have become a point in time to "give up" on internal combustion, in terms of serviceability, reliability and fuel consumption. How you look at this probably depends partly on your personal skill-set, and your willingness to learn new systems. The XM was reckoned by many to be fiercely complicated, but looking at X7, you get the impression of something being built cheaply and poorly engineered in more than one area, and it also being a vehicle not so easily tackled by owner-mechanics.

Whereabouts one decides to "call a halt" in the persuit of (secondhand) internal combustion is a very personal choice. Some will have done it with GS, BX, XM.... or later. Is it just a matter of old-age kicking in? Or lack of electronic or digital knowhow? Not for me (in the main): I could raise plenty of enthusiasm for troubleshooting a Tesla, but really do despair about propping up bits of tat like EGR, exhaust additive and rupturing hydraulic tanks.
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Re: At the risk of being shot - Eolys fluid again

Postby cachaciero » 11 Aug 2016, 23:34

Cobbled together??...well maybe but as a system post 2003 it's well thought out and executed IMHO. Why is it there? well in the beginning there was nothing, just loads of NOX. EGR was invented to reduce the amount of NOX, unfortunately this method of controlling NOX apart from clagging up inlet pipework etc.resulted in producing exhaust gasses rich in small carbon particulate matter which apparently is even more dangerous once it gets into the lungs than big carbon particles enter the exhaust filter!

Giving up on diesels? I have, got a Petrol / Electric Prius a few years back love it around town a bit tiring on longer journeys not so comfortable as the C5, The Lexus RX400H arriving tomorrow should sort that out and the C5? will be on ebay at a very low reserve within the next couple of weeks and at 70 I doubt that I will ever have another Cit. Loved them all for different reasons but the XM was probably the best all rounder. Unfortunately all the anti pollution crap is making diesel non viable for the mileage I do so hybrid it is.

Fixing modern cars does require a different knowledge set (knowledge of computers and networks being essential) and different tools, however when I look at the C5 and the finesse of control which electronics brings to it it really is quite awe inspiring from an engineers perspective.
IMHO trouble shooting a C5 given a Lexia is far quicker than trying to work out problems on an XM say. There is one other essential to success in this area and that is good technical documentation which really needs to extend beyond the Maintenance Manuals into the Manufacturers training documentation which least ways in Citroens case for the mk1 C5 was / is extremely comprehensive. In that respect I was lucky when I got my C5 in that I acquired a complete set of Training Docs without that I doubt that I would understand the car as well as I do. As regards the Prius and Lexus the fact that I have not as yet found an equivalent set of documents does leave me feeling a little exposed.
Latterly on the C5 given that I find lying on the floor wielding spanners a lot harder than it used to be I have taken to doing my own diagnostic work and then give the heavy spanner wielding jobs to the local garage, I don't let them tart around trying to work out what's broke by component substitution I just point at the bit I want them to change, will probably follow the same procedure with the Lexus should it ever go wrong which if its as good as the Prius is unlikely.

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Re: At the risk of being shot - Eolys fluid again

Postby white exec » 12 Aug 2016, 13:07

I find I agree with a good bit of what you have said. At (almost) 70, I can also sympathise with the prospect of under-car muscular contortions having become ever less attractive. Agree, too, about needing to nail a problem, and then (sometimes) get a workshop to do the deed - otherwise you may as well be writing an almost blank cheque. (Our local Toyota main dealer is very fond of simply 'replacing everything in sight', to swat what can often be a relatively minor hiccup.)

Also agree on the need for documentation, if you are going along this self-help route. The BX could be looked after pretty well with just Haynes (even they more-or-less understood what they were taking apart), but the XM (which they chickened out of dismantling) is a whole different ballgame. Fortunately, through Club-XM.co.uk and other sources, it is possible to amass several thousand pages of Citroen workshop documents and circuit diagrams - but, as you say, even these are sometimes not enough. Hydractive suspension is a good example: it's only the B7 Module (Technician Training) document that actually explains the workings and thresholds of all the sensors and ECU. Without that, guesswork would be legion.

I'm not sure to what extent owners of later Citroens (Xantia and on) have the benefit of this kind of available documentation. or whether it hasn't yet "become accessible". It would be interesting to see a published list of what is available/downloadable for Xantia onwards. It is clear that a good few technical questions (not least on X7) are sometimes difficult to answer, and contributors often have to rely on informed guesswork. Not always, thank goodness, though!
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Just a personal viewpoint, so deserves no special attention...

Hybrids? Interesting, up to a point, although not for me. My own opinion is that they are almost all an attempt by the car manufacturers to simply prolong the use of both their diesel and petrol engines. The excuse of inadequate battery performance really doesn't wash; if their efforts were seriously put into cracking this (and not leaving it to Tesla, and latterly Renault-Nissan), then we would be further down the road of good-range and plentiful quick-charge.

Many of the available hybrids are almost a joke. Mitsubishi has been caught over its ludicrous claims for Outlander PHEV, originally quoting 170+mpg, and more lately 140-ish. Tests have shown this to be more than double what can be achieved in real life, and the 'electric only' range of the vehicle is laughable. The Prius may be clean and capable for short urban hops, but as soon as and 'mixed suburban' commuting is done, then you're running a petrol engine, with all that that brings. It was a tolerable publicity stunt for both Toyota and 'electric cars' in general, which probably had the principal aim of changing the mind-set of buyers, and gentling them in to the idea of electric propulsion. Gentle progress it has certainly been!

It ought to be, for a while, horses-for-courses. Huge numbers of family journeys are local, urban and much, much less than 100 miles a day. Pure electric will do this today, and pretty capably. There is a good clutch of family cars to choose from, even now. For cross-country and transcontinental use, the need for clean air is less crucial (than in towns and cities), and - until 200-300 mile battery range becomes readily available - we can continue to use diesel and petrol, for a while longer. Many families find they need two cars these days anyway, and so one of each isn't too wide of the mark. Prices will fall. It might even be what many people would like to choose.

So why not do it all with a hybrid - electrically propelled in the towns, and fossil fuel outside them? If only that were actually possible, but it seems that, having to fit in a half-decent internal combustion engine, there is actually little room left for any meaningful quantity of batteries, or, for that matter in several cases, anything seriously capable electric-motor-wise. There have been several instances (hybrid buses as well as cars) of hybrid battery capacity being so reined-back that the small propulsion/charger motor needs to run most of the time. It really isn't a good way to go.

I think we have to look at what those now committed to full-electric cars are doing - certainly Tesla (his next offerings are going to be very interesting) and Renault-Nissan. Even PSA have joined in, in a small way. In as little as 5++ years' time, I would guess we're not going to be talking about urban vehicle exhaust in urban areas, simply because most the majority of vehicles just won't have one.


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And a Rover 2000TC in West Sussex! I used to have one of those too, in Cameron Green. Bought in Rustington, and sold several years later for my last P6, a Lunar Grey 3500S.
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Re: At the risk of being shot - Eolys fluid again

Postby cachaciero » 13 Aug 2016, 22:11

The Rover, nice car but I seemed to spend my life welding it up. Lunar Grey was my favourite colour and I always fancied a 3.5. The 2000 had to go when my work sent me abroad.

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