Vince's XM...213k and slowing....

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vince
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Post by vince » 24 Apr 2011, 19:05

Beasts of cars..... :wink:

Coming back to Xantia land, ive changed the rad thermo switch today with no change in lack of fan operation :(

I found this on another forum http://www.peugeotlogic.com/workshop/base/workshop.htm

Click into electrical at the top and then over to the left banner and click 306 Cooling Fans Basic
Principle Of Operation

Where is the fan control unit on the non AC Xant? and also is the earth point under the battery tray like on the 306?

Help me people cos im stuffed with no fans in this weather :lol:

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CitroJim
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Post by CitroJim » 24 Apr 2011, 19:09

Vince,

I've not long been back from Zunmerset. Give me a bit of time and I'll get the circuits exactly applicable to your car posted up...

That'll help nail it for sure and give me some ideas as to what the problem is...

Hold on tight for a bit...

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CitroJim
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Post by CitroJim » 24 Apr 2011, 19:57

Vince,

Here's the circuits... These apply to the early Non-Aircon Xantia with the thermoswitch.

I'm assuming yours is non-aircon Vince, advise me soonest if it is not!

Schematic Circuit

Harnesses

Locations

My diagnosis would be to start at teh ignition switch and check there is 12V on F3 in the cabin fusebox and that F3 is OK.

Then check there is 12V on the two giant fuses BMF1 and BMF 2 in the engine bay fusebox and that they have clean terminals.

Luckily, the circuit is quite straightforward and should be OK to fault-find.

You may have a corroded wire in the loom causing this... You can check the fans basically work by removing the plug from the thermoswitch (1505) and linking pins 1 and 2 in the plug for one speed and 1 and 3 for the other speed.

If the fans (or just one fan) work(s) on high speed but not in slow then one fan motor is invariably duff. This means that series connected for slow mode neither will work.

Hope that helps Vince!

vince
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Post by vince » 25 Apr 2011, 00:47

Sounds good Jim thanks...i will throw myself into a crash course of vehicle electrical fault finding tomorrow :P :wink:

Yes no air con :wink:

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Post by vince » 25 Apr 2011, 21:30

Well with big thanks to Jim and Richard (THANKS GUYS) i checked the fuse under the dash and the feed which showed 12 V and also hooked up number 1 terminal on the thermo switch multiplug to both 2 and 3. 3 clicked a relay but 2 did nothing. Also no fans came on :(

Tracing the clicking relay there is only the top right hand relay point which is working. The 3 relays are all the same so were each tested in that socket and they all clicked so seem ok. Whilst on the phone to Richard it was confirmed that the fan blades should rotate freely when not in use...neither of mine did :( They had a small amount of play in them but certainly did not rotate freely. So i decided they will need to be replaced. Not being sure how to take the fans out and definately not committing to taking the front bumper off i managed to get the fans and motors dissasembled from their housing and removed through the gap between the front grill support panel and the bumper....Rich said it was going to be a knuckle scraper either way and he was right. The right hand fan came off easily enough with the left hand thread screw removed, however the left hand fan screw was stuck in fast and no amount of lube and combination of screwdriver would budge it....so i had to cut a fan blades off to make an access window so i could get at the motor bolts. Then with the aid of a large broom handle and some welly i managed to wrench the assembly out of the front. (Not recommended) No damage was done to any other part of the car and they are going to be replaced so it was a result in my book :wink:

So tomorrow i will make a call to my local second hand Xantia parts guy and if i cant get any motors and x 1 fan blade assembly (the other is ok) then Richard has kindly offered to help me out with some replacement motors :) I will also be replacing the big fuses and probably the relays from a breaker to rule that lot out.

I doubt ill get it back in and running before my trip next weekend but i want to do it right and not rush it so will take my time and get it right.

Some photos for anyone who has never tried to remove these before to show it can be done without removing the front bumper :)

You will see the connection were quite furred up and the motors look past their best :roll:
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vince
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Post by vince » 29 Apr 2011, 18:49

Ok, so now i have a better understanding of what has happened with my fans ceasing to work.

Firstly the new fans motors are now in the car :)
Image

After a bit of messing around to get the fan blades back in so that they rotate without wobbling (these is a flat lug on the inside of the fan body that needs to line up on the one on the motor shaft) which is no doubt nice and easy when your putting in a pre assembled fan motor and blade and not doing it through the grill hole seperately like i was doing. I realised that i still had no fans.

Finally i discovered the likely culprit...
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Id obviously made "a booby" by not finding the two big 40A fuses that live by the battery which were both blown before speaking to Richard and realising that my motors were duff and assuming that was the only fault.

The reason i didnt find this before was because i was looking for a 40 amp fuse by the battery controlling the fans and i found one in the fuse tray by the battery (first lower right hand fuse) and that was ok. What i didnt read properly from Jim's advice (hence the booby) was the location of these big fuses underneath the two smooth rectangular covers on the right hand next to the corragated relay/fuse box cover.
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The positive i take out of this realisation is that they will have blown through the fact that my old fan motors were seized almost solid :shock: and so these would have needed to be replaced anyway.

Its hard to tell sometimes how stiff a motor is until you get your hands on a freed up one and notice the difference. The motors Richard kindly sent me are spot on and rotate super free :wink:

As I didnt get done today until around 5pm and am away tomorrow, on sunday i will try to get some fuses from my local scrappy then all being good those will be the final pieces of the puzzle and fans will be restored. Due to the sudden nature of their failure i can only presume that the final big fuse went due to the seized motor and that i have been running on just one fan for quite some time.

I cant wait to get them both working again as i hate things that dont work as they should.

Im learning :wink: :P

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red_dwarfers
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Post by red_dwarfers » 30 Apr 2011, 11:52

Nice one vince, always good when something works out logically :)

vince
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Post by vince » 01 May 2011, 23:52

Well a quick trip tot eh local ish scrappy this morning and a fair trade was had....£1 for x 3 big 40A fuses.

Popped the two back in place keeping one for a spare in case something went wrong, and hey presto.....fans are back again :D

Both slow speed and high speed working as planned.

Job done :wink:

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CitroJim
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Post by CitroJim » 02 May 2011, 07:37

Excellent news Vince!!!

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red_dwarfers
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Post by red_dwarfers » 02 May 2011, 11:39

Proper!

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Post by vince » 09 May 2011, 23:02

Well guys, not too much to report on the Xantia front.....except

As some of you might have seen, a few times i have discussed my wife learning to drive etc which is still an ongoing project for her, a bit on and off at the moment. After failing her test only on on gear change matters she has opted to learn in an auto as in her words "im not 21 anymore so i just want to pass and get on with it"....this means the Xantia will be up for sale soon :? Its a shame allround as i took the car out for a good long drive yesterday and it still puts a big smile on my face as to how well it drives and handles...Its phenomenal compared to other cars i have owned and driven.

Ive toyed around with a few ideas and taking into consideration that Linda will be the main driver (im always at work) and has no interest or idea on maintenance, will no doubt give it a few bumps and knocks as she gets used to driving, wants something smaller etc ive got little choice but to sell the VSX and allow her to feel comfortable in something she feels she can handle. Plus someone else can take over the car ive sweated on, enjoy it and hopefully keep it in one piece.

So.....once i figure out how im going to play the car swap thing (find the money to buy a different car, transfer the number plate etc) then i will be posting it up on here and dare i say it...on ebay?

Before it goes to a new home im going to go through it again and give it a good spruce up including the engine bay so that a buyer can see how much time and effort has been put in to bringing its condition up to as best that i can get it, and so they dont have to do much to it other than give it the occasional wash.

So if you know anyone in the market for a diesel that drives like a dream and needs no essential jobs doing to it then give them a nudge in my direction :wink:

Heed this however people.....I will always have a soft spot for Citroens and generally french cars :wink: Especially the Xantia :wink:

I darent say what my wife wants to us to get for fear of receiving hate mail :roll: but its german :wink:

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Citroenmad
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Post by Citroenmad » 09 May 2011, 23:17

I trust you've had a good Birthday Vince? :D

Not great news about the Xantia, though someone is going to get one of the best Xantia TDs in the UK, its stunning and sure to find a good home. Id like it myself, its just so clean.

Ah, I hope its not too mundane this German replacement! Not a Polo automatic or a Golf auto with a hiked up price tag because it has a VW badge ...

I know of an XM auto which would benefit from your sprucing Vince, can you not get persuading that bigger is safer :lol:

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davetherave
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Post by davetherave » 10 May 2011, 06:06

Thats a shame Vince.
Of the course the logical option is to sell the wife.
Good luck with the sale, surely someone will biter your arm off for it with the condition its in!

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XantiaDaveEire
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Post by XantiaDaveEire » 10 May 2011, 15:06

Hopefully someone will take as much care as you have and give it the attention it deserves Vince..

Out of interest how many miles are on it ?

Dave

vince
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Post by vince » 11 May 2011, 06:33

Its got 140K on it Dave however I had the top end re-built when the head gasket needed replacing at around 124K i think it was. The bottom end is bullet proof and the box is super smooth so it drives just the same if not better than it did when i bought it on 100K ish. It needs nothing mileage related at all doing to it.

Dave your comment on selling the wife made me laugh :lol: That would work out more costly though i think :P

I did toy around with the idea of VW's but having owned one for a few years in the past, they are too basic and agricultural and not so reliable as people often think.

Mercedes i also considered as they are a better quality car but i lose interest in the styling after the W123 saloons and although id happily have one of those as a daily driver....the wife wouldnt want something that big or old to drive around in....

Only BMW left then :wink: .....Its heart breaking that the older E30s and E28s have jumped up so much in value...they are too much money for what you get so the E36 is the one that stacks up the best. Not so new bu then cheap to buy and one of the most reliable smaller german family cars made.