Citrojim's Skoda, Saxo, 207 and Bike Tales

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

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KP
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Post by KP » 17 Nov 2009, 13:53

Go on Jim ;)
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Post by lexi » 17 Nov 2009, 17:23

Surely lots of these Xantias must have been thrashed in sports mode. With a 3LTR V6 and lower gears that is a bit of a pounding ? Maybe the box aint up to that? That being said the ones that last 150k can have no complaints. It is when they fail at 70-80k.
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Post by CitroJim » 17 Nov 2009, 17:25

If it still selects 3rd and reverse Toby, there may not be a mechanical fault with the 'box. It is dropping, as you say, into 3rd emergency and if the light is on then the ECU is decidedly unhappy with something. First step is to run diagnostics across it and see what the fault is. Sadly, the diagnostics are likely to be different than the Citroen but whatever it is will boil down to a standard 4HP20 problem. There is a massive list of potential things that can light the light and drop it into 3rd emergency.

All the tools you need are here Toby :wink:

It may be worth a punt if cheap..

KP wrote:Go on Jim ;)


But not for me Will. I really do have quite enough keeping me out of trouble for the foreseeable!!!
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Post by CitroJim » 17 Nov 2009, 17:55

lexi wrote:Surely lots of these Xantias must have been thrashed in sports mode. With a 3LTR V6 and lower gears that is a bit of a pounding ? Maybe the box aint up to that? That being said the ones that last 150k can have no complaints. It is when they fail at 70-80k.


Fundamentally Lexi, the 'box is built on the lines of a brick outhouse. Mechanically it is generally well engineered and up to the job.

I may be sticking my neck out here but I reckon almost all failures can be laid at the door of the "sealed for life" nature of the 'box and failures are caused by deteriorated oil. I reckon if the oil is changed regularly then they will go on for ever, nearly.

Failures so far seen have been clogging filters, burned out clutch as a result of the first leading to low and then zero oil pressure due to further clogging from bits of clutch;

A broken valve spring in the valve block; (may be related to the first as the valve in question is what controls normal mode/3rd emergency and the clutch in question could burn out if 3rd emergency and normal electronic control mode was in force at the same time.

A seized output gear bearing which then seems to cause a chain reaction of taking out the oil pump, the bearing support plate and the torque converter.
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Post by CitroJim » 17 Nov 2009, 22:43

Good progress this evening. The new output gear bearings have been installed and I spent considerable time checking their pre-load and understanding the very complex method both ZF and Citroen give for checking it. Basically, the slotted nut does not set it. It is set by a spacer between the bearings. Both spacers I have were the same thickness and with it all assembled I can feel a minute tad of play so I reckon that equates to a given play of 0.03mm to 0.085mm that is specified.

The 'box is already to start going back together now, no further showstoppers have been found :D We're on course for the weekend. Just hope the weather is kind :roll:
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Post by vince » 17 Nov 2009, 22:49

Incidentally Jim, how long does it now take you to whip out a V6 engine and box?
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Post by CitroJim » 17 Nov 2009, 23:01

From start to sitting on the rug, I reckon, given nice weather and barring episodes like stuck intermediate driveshaft bearings, 6 hours Vince :D

That goes for any Xantia engine/transmission really. They're all mounted in the same way and come out the same way. The V6 is just a bit bigger and heavier...

Gareth has done an excellent write-up on how to do it :D
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Post by lexi » 18 Nov 2009, 11:16

Very interesting Jim. Not Citreons fault either as Alfas have the same fail record with ZF box....BMW as well ?

Can the filter box be changed by dropping sump with all in situ?
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Post by CitroJim » 18 Nov 2009, 12:01

lexi wrote:Can the filter box be changed by dropping sump with all in situ?


Sadly, no it can't :evil: To get at the filter the 'box has to be split. Shocking piece of design.

What appears to be the sump sits vertically on the 4HP20 and just covers the valve block.

I'm sure that if the filter could be changed easily it would help increase the lifespan.

If you ever have to lift a V6 engine for any reason, it's worth crackingt he gearbox open just to have a look, swap the filter and give it all a good clean-up.
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Post by lexi » 18 Nov 2009, 22:33

I saw this today Jim when changing coolant and thought "Jim`s gonna tell me no way" :lol:
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Post by CitroJim » 20 Nov 2009, 23:31

Good work this evening, the gearbox is completely reassembled and ready to rejoin its engine.

I found out the hard (or messy) way this evening just how much oil is retained in what appears to be a drained torque converter :twisted: :lol:

Weather does not look promising for tomorrow for lifting t he engine back in :(

Mike, I've sent you a PM...
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Post by lexi » 21 Nov 2009, 17:10

Hats off for doing all this outside. No carport Jim ?
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Post by CitroJim » 21 Nov 2009, 17:29

lexi wrote: No carport Jim ?


No! I've been cogitating about one for years but the location of my garage and the shared drive (my garage is a semi with my neighbour's) would mean I could only really install a cantilever one and they're expensive...

Still, the weather gods were kind to us today and I'm delighted to report the engine is back in and rain (and light) has just stopped play with only minor stuff left to do. All the horrible jobs like the exhaust to cat connection and the starter/alternator loom are done and it's really just driveshafts, LHM reservoir and header tank to go now :D :D One thing we have learned is the exhaust is easier to do before the LHM reservoir, header tank goes back in and heater matrix pipes are reconnected. My special bent 10mm spanner also helps...

Tomorrow, with a bit of shower-dodging, should see it running again.

My garage looks strangely empty again. I wonder for how long :roll:
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Post by CitroJim » 22 Nov 2009, 19:40

Those in charge of the weather were kind to us again today although their patience was wearing thin toward the end...

The morning dawned, dry, clear and bright and I was out at 8AM busy installing driveshafts although being as quiet as I could for the neighbours. Mike arrived at 9 and by 11 she was running :D

the rain came just as we were refitting mudshields and wheels. Great timing really!

All is good, the engine runs sweetly and the 'box is now sweet. Gearchages are like oiled silk. They're positive but smooth. And no descending into third emergency at over 3,000 rpm :D This has been well tested and the car has covered over 100 miles today and at one point approached 100mph :lol: :lol:

Mikes gearbox is a lot smoother than mine but the answer may be in the "mix'n'match" nature of my 'box. As said earlier my spares 'box was not originally from a V6 and I used the torque converter from it on mine.

Mike showed me how to conduct a converter stall test this morning. Handbrake hard on, stand on footbrake and pop the transmission in D. Then floor the accelerator and observe the reading on the tacho. This gives the converter stall speed. Mike's stalls at 2,200 rpm and mine at just under 2000 rpm so mine is wrong for the V6 :twisted:

I'm not intending to change it just yet and will live with the slightly less than perfect slow-speed changes for a while!!!

I rounded the day off with a spin in the Activa...

I think I shall have a rest now for a while...
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Post by xantia_v6 » 22 Nov 2009, 20:18

CitroJim wrote:All is good, the engine runs sweetly and the 'box is now sweet. Gearchages are like oiled silk.

I have to give my thanks to Jim for seeing this through to a happy conclusion. It has been a bit of a trial, but the car is now running brilliantly again. (not that I minded driving the E-type though :wink: )
Also a belated thanks for Toby for helping Jim with the engine removal while I was away. :D

CitroJim wrote:and the car has covered over 100 miles today and at one point approached 100mph :lol: :lol:
I am sure that was parallax when viewing the speedometer from the passenger seat. :wink: :wink: It is why I always engage the cruise control when on a clear motorway to stop the speed running away.


CitroJim wrote:I think I shall have a rest now for a while...
Now that I would like to see :lol:
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