Citrojim's Activa, 207 and Bike Tales

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

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CitroJim
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Re: Citrojim's Xantia Activa, 1.9TD and Bike Tales

Post by CitroJim » 21 Feb 2017, 10:51

Mandrake wrote:I'd identify this circuit that allows low fan speed with the key off and start troubleshooting there. Can you post the full circuit diagram for the fans Jim for a looksee ?


Simon, yes, I will later...

It is interesting it has coincided with warmer weather but it's not that warm yet!!! I don't' yet know what triggers fan run-on but the fan diagram shows lots of unused inputs into the Bitron ECU which I presume are parts of the aircon diagram. I guess such an input comes from the aircon ECU via a sensor somewhere on the evaporator and this sensor may be the one telling lies and causing to odd behaviour.

I'll get those diagrams up when I can as I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this Simon :)
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Re: Citrojim's Xantia Activa, 1.9TD and Bike Tales

Post by Hell Razor5543 » 21 Feb 2017, 10:53

It isn't only the French who made life difficult for themselves. The mainline WWII German battle tanks were not designed for maintenance engineers. For example, if you had to replace the final drive mechanism (the bits that drove the cogs that pulled the tracks) you had to pretty much strip out the whole of the insides (as they came out from within the tank), and the process was measured in days. The USA made some of their tanks more engineer friendly. On the Sherman tank you uncoupled the tracks, undid four massive bolts, and took the unit off the front of the tank, fitted a new unit, did everything back up tight, and drove away. 1/2 a day, tops.
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Re: Citrojim's Xantia Activa, 1.9TD and Bike Tales

Post by Stickyfinger » 21 Feb 2017, 11:16

Hell Razor5543 wrote:It isn't only the French who made life difficult for themselves. The mainline WWII German battle tanks were not designed for maintenance engineers. For example, if you had to replace the final drive mechanism (the bits that drove the cogs that pulled the tracks) you had to pretty much strip out the whole of the insides (as they came out from within the tank), and the process was measured in days. The USA made some of their tanks more engineer friendly. On the Sherman tank you uncoupled the tracks, undid four massive bolts, and took the unit off the front of the tank, fitted a new unit, did everything back up tight, and drove away. 1/2 a day, tops.


Umm, and that was a limiting factor in the design (protection) of the US design.

Was not the case for the Pz4, the similar size German.

Panther/Tiger/Tiger Ausf.B were heavy tanks in comparison to the Sherman/Cromwell's.

Panther & Tiger Ausf.B could have the transmission removed via removable hull plate
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Re: Citrojim's Xantia Activa, 1.9TD and Bike Tales

Post by CitroJim » 21 Feb 2017, 11:18

Surprised the Germans made such a fundamental error as that James! Maybe their tanks were French designed :lol:
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Re: Citrojim's Xantia Activa, 1.9TD and Bike Tales

Post by Stickyfinger » 21 Feb 2017, 11:25

In fact the Panther/Tiger.B could use its own Jib to remove its own Transmission.....so not to shabby Jim.

Transmission removal on a Panther AusfG, note the removable deck panel on the ground
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Engine deck/Engine change on Tiger.B using the crane mounted via the 'Pilzen' sockets
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Modelled for ease of view
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Re: Citrojim's Xantia Activa, 1.9TD and Bike Tales

Post by RichardW » 21 Feb 2017, 13:21

I doubt Jim's going to need one of those to remove the Bitron, but you never know!!
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Re: Citrojim's Xantia Activa, 1.9TD and Bike Tales

Post by CitroJim » 21 Feb 2017, 13:33

RichardW wrote:I doubt Jim's going to need one of those to remove the Bitron, but you never know!!


It might help Richard :lol: Those S2 front bumpers are jolly heavy you know!!!
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Re: Citrojim's Xantia Activa, 1.9TD and Bike Tales

Post by RichardW » 21 Feb 2017, 22:52

Had a look at the wiring diag (a la BOL anyway!) Jim.

All 3 relays are earth switched via the Bitron. Item 1502 (the 'LH' fan relay) on its own, the other 2 together. Only this relay is fed with permanent live (via F14 which also feeds the Bitron). The other 2 are switched live via F2, also fed to the Bitron. Pulling in 1502 causes the fans to run at slow speed. Pulling in of the other 2 relays causes the fans to run at high speed (but requires the LH relay to be energised for them both to run, otherwise only the RH fan will run).

So, either the temp sensor is giving the wrong signal to the Bitron, and causing it to run the fans at slow speed after shut down, or the bitron is goosed. If the former, then I would expect the fans to be running at high speed immediately before shutdown - you would need to get out and see before switching off, or rig up a test lamp to see if you are getting high speed. Allegedly there is a connection to the diag socket, but it comes off the supply to the RH fan, so all it will tell you is if the fans are off, half or full speed. There doesn't appear to be a connection to the Bitron unit, so you can't see what it is doing. Warning lamp appears to come off a different sensor.
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Re: Citrojim's Xantia Activa, 1.9TD and Bike Tales

Post by CitroJim » 22 Feb 2017, 10:41

Thanks for that Richard :) That's brought out some good stuff as the fans never run at high speed - even with the Bitron sensor disconnected - as the RH and Centre Relay never operate and this I've not yet investigated as I've been so far happy that the fans at least run at half-speed and that should generally be good enough.. I suspect the reason is because of more breaks in the loom.

The LH relay is the only one that operates and my work-around has been to provide it with an ignition-switched supply rather than its more usual permanent live supply which was the last casualty of a break in the loom.

I've not had any opportunity yet to look at the other Bitron connections but my suspicion is that more loom breaks has open-circuited on of its inputs and the Bitron is seeing this as a command to run the fans after the ignition is off. I've not known a duff Bitron ECU itself but there's always a first time I guess.. I have had one in bits out of curiosity once and there's not a lot in there and it's all discreet components as far as I recall and should be amenable to repair with any luck..

I am going to obtain a complete replacement loom and Bitron next month and hopefully after fitting that lot all will be good.
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Re: Citrojim's Xantia Activa, 1.9TD and Bike Tales

Post by Mandrake » 22 Feb 2017, 11:14

Ah, I think you failed to mention all these modifications to work around loom breaks in the context of this fan problem Jim! :lol:

Or if you did I missed it. Quite likely that this is the cause of your problem.
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Re: Citrojim's Xantia Activa, 1.9TD and Bike Tales

Post by CitroJim » 22 Feb 2017, 11:48

Mandrake wrote:Or if you did I missed it. Quite likely that this is the cause of your problem.


Possibly many, many pages back in my blog Simon... It's a mess. It's had more work-arounds than a flaky IT system just to maintain some sort of functionality ;)

Odd as that's the only bit of electrics - touch wood - that's given trouble...

I just hope I've not spoken too soon :lol:
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Re: Citrojim's Xantia Activa, 1.9TD and Bike Tales

Post by Zelandeth » 22 Feb 2017, 16:33

Just remembered something that might be relevant Jim. When this first happened (in the pouring rain, in the hospital car park of course!), I found that pulling all of the fuse(s) associated with the fans, cooling and A/C according to the handbook would not stop the fans from running. This tended to point to me that there's a short in the loom somewhere and it's finding 12V from someplace it shouldn't be.

Had forgotten that...In my defence, it was nearly a year ago!

Also, the electrical system in the Xantia is an order of magnitude more complex than I'm really used to!

As you say though, save for a dodgy light in the boot and the usual heater blower issue, it's the only electrical issue I remember coming across. Do have to wonder if it might well be why the previous owner sold it when they did.
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Re: Citrojim's Xantia Activa, 1.9TD and Bike Tales

Post by CitroJim » 22 Feb 2017, 18:08

Thanks Zel :D That's valuable!

The only way to stop the fans if they are running uncontrollably is pull tow of the giant fuses D and E I think it is and then just hope that's all they feed...

Like the 207, I'm determined to fix this issue...
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Re: Citrojim's Xantia Activa, 1.9TD and Bike Tales

Post by Zelandeth » 22 Feb 2017, 19:02

I honestly can't remember what it was that I pulled and whether it included any of the maxi-fuses or not. I just remember consulting the handbook, then pulling anything that sounded like it could be in any way vaguely related that I could readily get to, without it having any effect. After that I grabbed a screwdriver, pulled the cover and just pulled the relay. It was a cold, soaking wet day nowhere near a major city at the time, so a lack of a cooling fan wasn't a major issue at the time.

One thing I *didn't* try at the time was a BSI reset - though as you've replaced the battery since then it can be crossed off the list!
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Re: Citrojim's Xantia Activa, 1.9TD and Bike Tales

Post by CitroJim » 25 Feb 2017, 20:14

It's been a good day today... A nice run out in the Activa to visit Team WFA and do a bit of work on a C5...

Namely replacing the valve block in the Aisin Warner 6-speed autobox.

The engine and 'box was out of the car for other reasons - failed turbo - so whilst at it some value-addeds were done, the gearbox being one.. The valvebolck electrovalves wear over time and make the gear-change a bit ropey on occasion.

New valveblocks are expensive at £450 but against that, it's allegedly the only thing that ever gives trouble in the 'box so it's not too bad overall... A cheap fix compared with a new car or autobox...

It's an easy job and can be done in-situ

I've brought the old valveblock home for a bit of a look at and to see if anything can be done with it.

We also did the cam-belt and water pump whilst the engine as out. A very easy job indeed :)

I very much enjoyed it all...

Here's a couple of pictures:
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