Citrojim's Activa, 207 and Bike Tales

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

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CitroJim
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My Cars: A red Xantia Activa, a pretty blue Pug 207, a Giant TCR Bike and a Giant TCR Pro Bike.
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Post by CitroJim » 09 Nov 2009, 21:26

Yes, indeed :( My mistake. Rather than replace the failed output gear bearing, I elected to use a good gear and bearing from my spares gearbox originally from a crashed 406 Coupe. What I did not appreciate was that the 406 Coupe version of the 4HP20 use a different final drive ratio to that in the Xantia :oops: The output gear is significantly smaller and as the ECU output speed sensor reads the rotational speed of this gear for gear coherence checks, that's why it's logging a fault. It is seeing the output gear spinning too slowly at high revs for the gear selected electronically when referenced against the input speed sensor. I would have thought the ECU would have coped on initialisation but not so. :cry: Oh well, engine out and gearbox apart again :roll:

A bit of learning the hard way I guess...

Nothing for it but replace the bearings on the proper output gear to restore normality. To this end I have been working on how to do that this evening.

First task is this slotted nut. It's TIGHT.

Image

I made up a tool for this out of an old lathe tool with a 205 hub nut welded to it...

Image

Image

In use..

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Nut off and the gear pressed out. The top bearing was seized and spinning in it's housing. The bottom one was basically OK.

I now have the problem of removing the inner race from the bottom of the gear shaft. I'll sleep on that one..

I'm currently cooking the housing in the oven to see if the outer race will drop out with heat.

Here's the dismantled output gear...

Image

The bearing housing (also the F Brake piston bore) is wrecked where the duff bearing has been spinning.

All good fun.....

Still, at least the engine will come out easily this time :lol:
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Jim

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XantiaMan
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Post by XantiaMan » 09 Nov 2009, 21:31

Not good Jim.... I wouldnt have the patience, most likely would leave it for a while to regain enthusiasm. Hope it all goes to plan this time.
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xantia_v6
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Post by xantia_v6 » 09 Nov 2009, 21:34

I suppose you could say the immune system rejected the transplant.

I have done a bit of googling, and it seems that all the es9j4 PSA applicaitons use the same output ratio, but the other engines version of the 4HP20 has a different ratio (I suppose it doesn't rev as high).

[edited to correct numbers]
es9j4 = 3.54:1
DW12 and EW12 = 2.87:1
and the DW12 version has a reduction ratio of 59 x 68 compared to the petrol (and DW12) versions of 58 x 71

BTW: Thanks for for your continued patience.
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CitroJim
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Post by CitroJim » 09 Nov 2009, 23:32

Ah, that would explain it. I always assumed the spares 'box I had came from an ES9J4 engined Coupe but if it came from a DW12 or EW12 than that would be it. Bingo!

I only saw the gearbox alone when we collected it, sitting in a puddle of water so never saw from whence it came...

No worries on the patience side of things :wink:
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CitroJim
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Post by CitroJim » 10 Nov 2009, 22:24

Success with the bearings this evening using traditional methods, both the inner race at the bottom of the shaft nearest (and flush with) the gear and the outer race came out easily enough and without damage :D :D

I did look at bearing extractors but the one recommended by ZF costs £630 :shock: In the end I managed it fine with what I had and at zero cost. Years of doing Mini wheel bearings has finally come in handy!

Refitting the bearings is a different matter and a mandrel is essential. The bearings are far too big to use the traditional method of using a big socket so one had to be made. The only suitable material I had was a big billet of aluminium alloy. It took and hour and a half to machine it on the lathe...

The mandrel, complete with the output gear assembly in all its component parts can be seen in this picture:

Image

So, for this one job, two special tools had to be made!!!

The car is coming back on Thursday. I'm looking for a volunteer to help me lift the engine out again over the weekend as Mike is away for a while.

Full board, food and lots of tea is on offer to anyone who wishes to give me a hand and learn how to lift a Xantia engine. It's easier than it looks but does need two people... I'd never risk it on my own...

EDIT: Looking at the bearing outer race in the foreground, wear on it is quite easy to see. And that's the good one of the two. The other one is welded solidly together. I tried to press it apart this evening and gave up at 5 tons pressure...
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Post by MikeT » 10 Nov 2009, 23:57

How I envy you and your workshop Jim! I have to make do with my kitchenette - I have a workmate instead of a cooker :P

I wish I could offer assistance and gain the experience but it's just not possible for me to make a promise this side of the wallet-magnet (Xmas), sorry :(
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Post by Toby_HDi » 11 Nov 2009, 00:12

Jim, if you wouldn't mind at all having a hand from an engine removal novice then I could well be up for assisting. Which day would you be thinking as I work all day Saturdays

Would give me a chance to stretch the Alfa's legs too, it needs it.

Let me know what you think and I'll check if I'm doing anything already (almost 100% I'm not - I never do!)
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Previous:
2004 Peugeot 407 HDi 138 SE Luxury Pack
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2001 Peugeot 406 V6 Coupé
1998 S2 Xantia Activa
2000 S2 Xantia HDi 110 SX
1999 Peugeot 406 2.0 16v Estate

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CitroJim
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Post by CitroJim » 11 Nov 2009, 07:22

That'll be brilliant Toby :D Thanks...

The only thing that will put it off is heavy rain. Sunday would be the best day as Friday evening and Saturday will be the day for the preparation so on Sunday, just the lift out and gearbox separation. Three hours tops.

Be good to see your new wheels too.
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lexi
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Post by lexi » 11 Nov 2009, 23:19

Nice work Jim. Are you able to source from a bearing supplier rather than go to Citroen?
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Post by Toby_HDi » 12 Nov 2009, 09:58

PM sent Jim
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Previous:
2004 Peugeot 407 HDi 138 SE Luxury Pack
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2001 Peugeot 406 V6 Coupé
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2000 S2 Xantia HDi 110 SX
1999 Peugeot 406 2.0 16v Estate

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CitroJim
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Post by CitroJim » 12 Nov 2009, 13:41

PM replied Toby!
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MikeT
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Post by MikeT » 12 Nov 2009, 17:21

Hi Toby, if you're going up to Jim's could you do me a favour and collect a cabin sensor off me I got for him and also bring back the Lucas pump he's got for me please?
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Post by lexi » 12 Nov 2009, 18:01

. I`ve just ascertained that the bearings are part-assemblys so it`s pull the trousers down time at Stealers? Sometimes bearings and seals are automotive application only which means the car maker has had a mod or add-on done to it. If not however the same bearing can be bought for peanuts instead of .......££££££OUCH :shock:
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French Mistresses gone.
Vel Satis 3.5 v6
ZX 1.9D Est.
ZX 1.9DHatch
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Xantia 2.0 hdi Est.
Xantia V6 MK1
Xantia V6 MK 2

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CitroJim
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Location: North Bucks
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x 681

Post by CitroJim » 12 Nov 2009, 20:45

Mike, that's wonderful, thank you :D I shall certainly have a pump ready to send back with Toby!

Lexi, no way I'd go to a stealers for bearings. I deal with a specialist automatic transmission spares supplier and the bearings from them were very reasonable indeed as they are not standard off the shelf ones.

Mike's car is back on my driveway. I was hoping to make a start this evening but the weather is foul. Instead I readied the workshop for the job ahead and make ready to start as soon as the weather breaks.
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Post by Toby_HDi » 12 Nov 2009, 20:55

Not a problem Mike, :D

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Previous:
2004 Peugeot 407 HDi 138 SE Luxury Pack
2001 S2 Xantia HDi 110 SX
2001 Peugeot 406 V6 Coupé
1998 S2 Xantia Activa
2000 S2 Xantia HDi 110 SX
1999 Peugeot 406 2.0 16v Estate

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