Citrojim's Ka, Saxo and Bike Tales

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

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lexi
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Post by lexi » 06 Nov 2009, 19:53

Last auto I had was a Jatco on a big Patrol. It had a gauze in the sump and a nifty sedimenter filter tray ( £20) that came off after removing sump. At 150k or over however the ATF fluid cooler element in main water rad could block up with swarf and kill the tranny.
Prevention was to fit a couple of aftermarket Mocal type coolers and bypas the original. This took transmission to 250k easily.

Issues above seems to be similar to the Landrover ZF boxes........probably different box to Xantia V6

Where and what type of cooler has the ZF Xantia box Jim?. Is there no way to flush out all the fluid in that box by undoing the in and out to the cooler. Feed it in through a pump from 20litre drum until all the old comes out and the new stuff flows through ie all old fluid is out.
Engine is normally started to do this and therefore fluid in the TC is emptied and replenished in a continuous flow.

Maybe there isn`t the room?
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Post by CitroJim » 06 Nov 2009, 21:36

The 4HP20 has a very fine internal filter Lexi. You can see it in the PictorialI have just created of todays work.

It has a water oil cooler and it's mounted on top of the 'box. It's frightfully expensive to replace but luckily gives little problem as the efficiency of the filter keeps it clean. If you have cooling problems though that can fill the cooling system with sludge that can wreck the cooler.

The method you suggest for a total fluid change is possible and for this there is a convenient (ish) external pipe you can get to. Access is not easy so it's generally not done. A couple of partials at regular intervals seem to be the easiest way.

Today has been good despite being called into work again for an emergency job. Luckily it only took an hour and did not impact too much on my work plans for today.

The 'box is all back together and is documented pictorially here.

Tomorrow, all being well, we'll reunite it with the engine and get ready to reinstall the engine and gearbox in the car.
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Post by lexi » 06 Nov 2009, 22:41

Ok Jim. Just chewing the fat :wink: Great blog by the way.
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Post by vince » 06 Nov 2009, 23:25

Dont know about anybody else but i was just wondering when NASA are going to call you in to give their aged space shuttle fleet a check over :lol: How did you learn all this stuff :shock:

I loved your casual apporach on the LHM leak on your rear electrovalve....almost "oh yeah it was leaking, so i just fixed it"...Most of us would be like "Oh My God, whats wrong!!!" :lol:

P.s. On your comment of having a taste of what setting up on your own would be like, I work with garages every day, trust me, they havent got half the knowledge and "thoroughness" (thats not a word i know) that you have / put in on these vehicles :wink:

Malcolm if your reading, your exempt from this :P
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Post by Sl4yer » 07 Nov 2009, 00:21

vince wrote:Dont know about anybody else but i was just wondering when NASA are going to call you in to give their aged space shuttle fleet a check over :lol:


They'll never do that Vince. He likes to do things properly... :D

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Post by myglaren » 07 Nov 2009, 00:32

Bet you'd like to get your hands on this little beauty Jim :)
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Post by CitroJim » 07 Nov 2009, 07:45

Wow! that's an engine and a half Steve :D

Vince, I'm entirely self-taught on all of this. Well, not strictly as I learned lots from dad right from being a toddler. He did much the same as I do these days although his specialism was in 1960s Austins.

To reassemble the gearbox alone took all day yesterday, solid work apart from the time I had to go to work. I'm not a slow worker but the time and attention I pay to a job like this would never work out economically in any sort of business environment. At reasonable labour rates, my time on this job has already passed the £1,000 mark and there's still some way to go. Cost of parts alone has come out at around £500. Unless you can do the work yourself, the cost of resurrecting a V6 with a duff gearbox is massive. I reckon if it were done professionally you'd be looking at a cost in excess of £2,000.

I guess this is why the garages have to cut so many corners as to do otherwise it would bankrupt the customers and make a garage business non-profitable.
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Post by XantiaMan » 07 Nov 2009, 10:26

vince wrote:On your comment of having a taste of what setting up on your own would be like, I work with garages every day, trust me, they havent got half the knowledge and "thoroughness" (thats not a word i know) that you have / put in on these vehicles :wink:


Your absolutely right there, i've worked in many garages over the years and very few of them have Jim's laid back and logical approach to problem finding.

Weather is looking ok today for an engine/gearbox refit Jim... Good luck!
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Post by CitroJim » 07 Nov 2009, 11:42

XantiaMan583 wrote:Weather is looking ok today for an engine/gearbox refit Jim... Good luck!


Thanks Gareth :D

It's a beautiful sunny day here and perfect. Just about to crane the gearbox back on the engine and in she goes...
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Post by vince » 07 Nov 2009, 11:45

Good point Jim, however as Xantiaman says many mechanics dont know how to problem solve anymore.

To give you an example, at a garage in Liverpool who will remain nameless....I showed them the two sections of LHM pipe i wanted to join back together.....I asked him if he had anything to join the two sections together so it wouldnt leak...his answer? "You will just have to replace the whole pipe"

I asked one of the other mechanics (the one who knows what he is doing) and he gave me a pipe connector with differing widths each end and i pieced it back together succesfully.

The crazy thing was that the first person i asked was the owner of the garage :shock:
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Post by CitroJim » 07 Nov 2009, 19:46

Your good luck wishes certainly worked today Gareth :D The engine went back in like clockwork! The weather was perfect and the job went really well, even the exhaust to cat connection :D

We started out by doing a few small jobs on the engine, fitting the new torque converter, filling the gearbox with liquid gold (oil) and slowly spinning the converter by hand to prime the gearbox oil galleries. We knew when it was primed as the oil level in the 'box fell from the max to the min marker on the dipstick. To help matters along, we also filled the converter with oil before fitting.

Then it was a matter of mating the gearbox back to the engine using the crane, refitting the TDC sensor (tricky) and connecting up the coolant hoses and refitting part of the exhaust header assembly

Then it was just a matter of dropping the engine and gearbox back in the car.

One thing to note is that the lower engine mount must be fitted whilst the engine is still dangling on the crane, otherwise it's impossible to get the rear bolt in (where the fork bolts to the subframe) as it fouls on the rear bank exhaust header. When we did my V6 we found this out the hard way...

MikeT called on the phone at just about the time we'd reached this stage:

Image

Any earlier would have been problematical but at this point Mike was refitting the gearbox mount. I'm happy to say that despite appearances, the jib of the crane was a lot further away from his head than it appears :lol:

When we removed the engine, we put all nuts, bolts and small assemblies in marked plastic bags and by the end we had a big crate of them. Today it was a case of picking the right bag for the job at hand with no searching and wondering which bolt went where.. By the end of the afternoon the number of bags had been reduced to just three!

Bad light stopped play but now, essentially, it's just fluids and a couple of electrical connections before we go for a start-up...
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Post by CitroJim » 08 Nov 2009, 22:52

Despite heavy rain overnight, today, although starting off horribly grey, came good in the end despite it being a bit chilly.

After essential fluids were added and a the last few bits refitted, the V6 burst forth into life :D Coolant bled, gearbox topped up (a lot!) and brakes bled after an LHM change, she was all ready to hit the road.

A very brief test run, where it was noted the first few changes were a bit rough, was immediately followed by me driving the car 30 odd miles (including motorway!) to Mikes house. It was a bit nail-biting and a test of our workmanship but she did it fine and on arrival there was no leaks of any essential fluids. That's a good start :wink:

In driving, I found the car felt quite different to my own in the gearbox department and in particular, the first to second change was a bit harsh whereas in mine it's smooth. Conversely my second to first downchange to a halt is no really 100% smooth whereas in Mikes it is. My 2nd to 3rd change can be quite slow on light throttle whereas no sign of this in Mikes. My 'box was my first go at a rebuild and is a real mish-mash of all second-hand bits so it's not entirely surprising it's a bit challenged really.

More worrying was when Mike's suddenly dropped into third emergency mode. We went for lunch and on the way back it did it again. Worrying. Back at base, we ran a Lexia diagnostic and that threw up a gear coherence fault. Looking at the diagnostic detail, this can be caused by any number of possible things, including the multi-function switch that tells the ECU the gearstick position. Here maybe a connection to another problem. In the past the gearbox has dropped into third emergency for no real reason (full Story here) and has had a habit of blowing the injection fuse (F7) in the engine fuse box.

According to the wiring diagrams, the injection is supplied by F4 but for some reason both on my and Mikes V6, F7 does this job. It also supplies 12v to the gearbox multi-function switch! So, are the two faults related? Possibly... It is possible the internals occasionally short to the metal body and pop the fuse as well as confusing the ECU as to gear selection.

Anyway, back to the rough changes. I reinitialised the gearbox ECU just before the first start-up and then the gearbox did nothing but idle in P for a long time whilst the coolant was bled, the gearbox oil topped up and the brakes bled. I reinitilased the ECU again just before Mike departed for home and he now reports things are much better.

So, it really does seem from this experience that if the ECU is reinitialised it is important to drive off straight away on a varying route as soon as possible afterward.

It's been a good learning experience and our collective knowledge of these incredible gearboxes has been somewhat added to, not least of another expensive failure mode...

Mike, thanks for the lunch today :D That really was a real gem of a venue!
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Post by lexi » 09 Nov 2009, 18:01

Fantastic Jim ! All done outside in proper Ant Mechanic fashion? It`s some sight that lump shoehorning itself into that space. Amazing what you have learnt about this stuff now over the period.
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Citroen C5 HDI 110 Mk 1 hatchback

French Mistresses gone.
Vel Satis 3.5 v6
ZX 1.9D Est.
ZX 1.9DHatch
Xantia 1.9td est.
Xantia 2.0 hdi Est.
Xantia V6 MK1
Xantia V6 MK 2

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Post by Brigsygtt » 09 Nov 2009, 19:01

Fantastic work Jim. The thought of stripping an auto box gives me nightmares, never mind fixing one :lol:
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Post by xantia_v6 » 09 Nov 2009, 19:14

Houston... We have a Problem...

The aforementioned transmission has got a fault, which may be related to the replacement final drive.

Jim will be along shortly to give the some technical details, but the champagne is on hold.

The symptoms are that the transmission drops into limp-home mode whenever 3200 RPM is exceeded in any gear.
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