Citrojim's Activa, 207 and Bike Tales

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

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Post by TehAgent » 31 Oct 2009, 00:04

I knew it, this engine pulling business is spreading like some sort of epidemic lol. good luck Jim, i know how much fun can be had now.
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Post by xantia_v6 » 31 Oct 2009, 21:06

Jim will be along shortly to give the gorey details, but we had a fine day removing the engine and transmission from my V6. Jim was very good and did most of the messy work (but he did need to borrow my big hammer!).
We are all very lucky to have a characterful person like Jim around (me especially so now).
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Post by CitroJim » 31 Oct 2009, 21:51

I would have been here sooner had I not fallen asleep after taking a much needed shower :lol: A good part of the morning was spent under the car fighting the recalcitrant driveshaft intermediate bearing which finally gave in after the aforesaid big hammer was brought into use :lol: I have made a note that despite a good selection of hammers, my largest is not quite large enough and I'll soon rectify that! I'm not so sure that the intermediate bearing was the entire cause of the difficulty; it looked like there was some corrosion on the gearbox end splines as well (automatics run dry diff splines).

The next underneath job was the exhaust manifold to cat connection. This is the same as any other Xantia but bigger and even less accessible. It's a two-handed job and needs a socket on a very long extension containing a universal joint. Engine mount disconnected I could finally crawl from under, blinking in the sunlight. To make all that work just a little worse, the car was just supported high enough to crawl under as any higher would have impeded engine removal later.

Work them moved swiftly on, fuelled by fish and chips (many thanks indeed for those Mike :D ) and seemingly in no time at all we were ready to show the engine the crane and start lifting. This went surprisingly well and the only minor damage was a small lump out of the slam panel where the HP pump pulley became entangled in it. That removed and some careful jiggling had the engine and
transmission out. We did think we could escape removing the gearbox mount bracket and moving the fusebox but alas, both operations proved necessary.

Once the engine was wheeled into the garage, we found that only the front bank exhaust header pipe needs to come off. The engine was set on wooden blocks and the transmission separated from it after removing the TDC sensor (damage risk and a right devil to remove :twisted: ) and the pressure regulator. Vince called around this time to have a word about a nasty LHM leak he has.

Once the gearbox was off, we set about removing the torque converter and found it was stuck very fast. It wobbled but would not easily pull off as it should. We tried a bit of gentle leverage but to no avail. Mike hit on the idea of using metal bars as a kind of puller and we looked around for some suitable material. Dexion racking uprights were spotted in the roof of the garage and a couple of lengths were used to brace across the bellhousing and using the flexplate mounting bolts we succeeded in pulling off the torque converter complete with a gush of oil.

We then immediately spotted what was wrong. The torque converter tail (the bit that drives the oil pump and is its main supporting shaft) was found to be firmly welded to its bearing as shown below and identified by the green arrow. The bearing should have stayed in its housing in the oil pump casting!

Image

The torque converter oil seal can be seen below the bearing!

The bearing is normally a soft plain bush, a bit like a big end bearing in principle. It appears to have become very hot as it is literally welded to the tail and "blueing" can be seen inside the tail at the point where it has welded itself.

We are almost certain the lockup clutch or stator sprag has failed within the torque converter, which shed debris into the oil which caught under the bearing. We did find a suspicious piece of bronze in the oil that drained from the torque converter.

It appears the gearbox is OK but it will still be stripped, fully checked, cleaned and treated to a new oil filter and gaskets at the very least.

All in all, a wonderful day that started off with torrential rain which did not look at all promising only to give way to a warm and sunny day that was just ideal for the job in hand and hugely successful :D

I reckon we have now broken all records for just how quickly an engine and transmission can be lifted from a V6 Xantia :D :D :D
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Post by xantia_v6 » 31 Oct 2009, 21:57

It looks like the transmission in this discussion had exactly the same failure. Pity they didn't get a more coherent description of the root cause.

I am nearly falling asleep myself now...
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Post by CitroJim » 31 Oct 2009, 22:06

Thats a very interesting thread, well found :D

Lucky Renault owners, no need to remove the engine :twisted: If only that were the case on the Xantia :(
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Post by Deanxm » 31 Oct 2009, 23:18

Why do the later adaptive boxes have dry diffs outputs then? surely that would be a real pain to get the driveshafts out after a few years.

D
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Post by CitroJim » 01 Nov 2009, 09:17

I think it's all to do with the "sealed for life" nature of the 'box Dean. It allows the driveshafts to be pulled out with no loss of oil.

These 'boxes come from the factory read-filled and in fact it's important after a rebuild to fill and prime them first before refitting...
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Post by Deanxm » 01 Nov 2009, 09:36

Ah that makes sense i suppose, seems like a lot of trouble to go through just to save the tiny price of an oil change every year though?

Will be looking forward to seeing any pictures you have jim, the HP20 although sounding vastly more complicated than my 18 interests me a great deal.

Good luck

D
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Post by xantia_v6 » 01 Nov 2009, 09:59

Deanxm wrote:Why do the later adaptive boxes have dry diffs outputs then? surely that would be a real pain to get the driveshafts out after a few years.

D

It also eliminates the risk of damaging seals when fitting drivshaft.

Yet another 4hp20 with the same failure?

I don't accept that the problem is an oil pump failure, as the transmission was still working and changing gear.

My current pet theory is that the valves that control oil flow to the lock-up clutch (one of which should always be supplying oil to the torque converter) got blocked or jammed so that there was no oil feed to the converter.

The bearing on the torque converter (which is actually the "oil pump shaft") ran dry and seized. Then enough oil ran out of the converter back into the transmission that the torque converter could not operate porperly and started making its internal noises.
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Post by Deanxm » 01 Nov 2009, 11:08

Hi XantiaV6

But there has to be output seals somewhere, it just means now they are inside the box and difficult to access?

Jim, i know your busy but any chance of a photo of the T/C housing with the T/C removed? the drive for the oil pump looks the same but my box doesnt seem to have this T/C support bush, im just interested in the difference.

I bet your glad the engine came out yesterday :D not really the weather for laying under cars today is it :(

D
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Post by CitroJim » 01 Nov 2009, 11:48

Hi Dean, yes, delighted we lifted the engine yesterday and not today. Even the ducks have umbrellas up...

The oil seals work on the outer surface of the tubes carrying the driveshaft splines. Easily replaced.
This picture below shows both the TC housing minus TC and one of the driveshaft seals.

Image

If you want any more detailed, I'll do some more as I strip the 'box.

I've been thinking why the bush would have been starved. It must have a lubricant passage from the oil galleries. I'll be soon investigating that one...
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Post by Deanxm » 01 Nov 2009, 11:56

Thanks for that Jim, all is now clear.
On mine the T/C is open to the Oil pump and there is no way it could starv of oil unless there was none, no bush either, the T/C seems to hang on the flywheel and the splined input shafts,stator mount shaft in the box and the oilpump drive, the 20 really is a totaly different animal altogether.

D
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Post by xantia_v6 » 01 Nov 2009, 15:22

Every automatic tranmission I have seen has a bearing on the oil pump end of the torque converter, it is necessary because the other end of the torque converter is mounted on the flex plate, which err... flexes... so the bearing is needed to make the torque converter run true.

I remember now that that bearing got chewed out on the Borg Warner box of a 3.4 litre Jag my parents owned, shortly followed by failure of the adjacent oil seal and rapid relocation of transmission fluid to the road surface.

BTW, I am fairly sure that on your box, the oil feed to the torque converter will be through the centre shaft, with the return around the outside.
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Post by Deanxm » 01 Nov 2009, 18:07

Hi XantiaV6

:oops: yes your right of course, i thought i was going a bit mad so since it was raining and there is naff all on telly i went back out into the garage, pulled the box out and stripped it again, here is the bearing, you can see it on the oil pump housing/ stator shaft mount.


Image

but the T/C is not held solidly in place, you can rock it to a degree when engaged with the gear box, not sure if this is to allow the T/C to move with the flex plate to which it is fitted, or the reason why the flex plate is fitted (have not got that far with my reading yet)

The thing i dont get is that the oil pump itself seems to have a lot to do with holding the T/C in place, with the T/C engaged with the pump drive gear it does a good job of keeping the T/C in place, fiting the T/C to the box with the oil pump drive gear missing lets the T/C flap about like a sheet in the wind on the inboard end so the bush pictured above doesnt seem to do a great deal,



Image

unfortunatly i run out of time when i stripped it before and didnt get around to fully understanding the boxes operation and moving into my new house this wednesday i doubt if i will for a good while yet either:cry:

D
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Post by CitroJim » 01 Nov 2009, 18:25

That pump assembly, Dean, looks very similar to the 4HP20...

Compare:

Image

(This was a picture taken of my original gearbox strip and is not recent!)

I've been busy today giving the gearbox a good clean up ready for stripping. I'm a great believer in clenliness when doing any job like this and it does help make the whole job more pleasant. An hour of white spirit, scrubbing and blowing dry with the airline sees it all ready for the next phase of work.

Whilst mucky, I also gave the pressure regulator a good scrub and a few other oily bits received similar attention. Then it was a tidy, reorganise and thorough clean of the garage itself. It's now cleaner and tidier than my house :lol:

Here's a shot of the gearbox all sparkly clean and ready for opening up...

Image
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