Xantia only one fan running?

Post your Cit/Peu/Ren air conditioning queries or advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Stewart(oily)
Posts: 800
Joined: 07 Oct 2005, 16:31
Location: Wales
My Cars:
x 5

Xantia only one fan running?

Post by Stewart(oily) » 15 Jul 2006, 16:15

After getting my newly acquired Xantia TD 1998 up to over 100 degrees today in traffic I thought I had better have a look at the fans, whilst checking connections I located a dirty connector behind the N/S headlamp and a disconnected aircon compressor, cleaned and reconnectes and regassed the aircon is blowing nicely cold (its showing 35 degrees here presently) and the cooling fan is coming on at 90 degrees as it should, but only one fan is running? can anyone shed any light on this?
Stewart
0x
BXs since 1993, currently have one of the few 1.9TDs in captivity, sold on in 2006, got a S2 Xantia estate, brilliant car! 2013 mechanically karked it at 210,000 after breaking its cambelt, Xantia HDI LX 110 2000 new car with 122,000, lovely motor, getting to know it.

User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2064
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 8

Post by Clogzz » 16 Jul 2006, 14:03

Congratulations, :D because it looks like you’ve got a curiosity. :?
At 90ºC, both fans should run at the low speed.
Same for when the air conditioning is on.
They are then in series, and I don’t see how one could run at the low speed by itself.
Could it be that the one spinning fan is running at the high speed ?
Here are the map and recent stories:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=17012

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=14682

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=18871

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=18965

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=19090

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=19296

http://www.bxclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6857
0x
2003 C5 2.0i AL4 183,000 km 76372389

Stewart(oily)
Posts: 800
Joined: 07 Oct 2005, 16:31
Location: Wales
My Cars:
x 5

Post by Stewart(oily) » 16 Jul 2006, 17:02

The solo fan is going like a fiddlers elbow, cutting in and out at high speed regularly within minutes of a cold start (Aircon on) been to the breakers today, its about 30 degrees here and the aircon has been working hard, I have another fan now and will wait for a cold engine to fit it.
Stewart
0x
BXs since 1993, currently have one of the few 1.9TDs in captivity, sold on in 2006, got a S2 Xantia estate, brilliant car! 2013 mechanically karked it at 210,000 after breaking its cambelt, Xantia HDI LX 110 2000 new car with 122,000, lovely motor, getting to know it.

User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2064
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 8

Post by Clogzz » 17 Jul 2006, 12:05

Like a fiddler’s elbow ? :)
Good expression, :D never heard.

This could be a bad contact on the brown temperature sensor on the thermostat housing, or its wiring.
There’s a modification that Citroën used to do for free in France:

http://xu10j4r.free.fr/xantia/notexantia.pdf

Could also be bad contacts on the Bitron.
In that case, the temperature warning light and STOP light also come on at times.
On the diesels, the Bitron lives under the passenger’s side headlight.
I’ve had this fault on my 2.0i petrol.
Scraping the Bitron pins with the rough end of a broken piece of hacksaw blade fixed it for good.
A clean with WD40 is good for only a few days.
Normally, both fans should come on, and do the same thing.
If only one fan comes on at the high speed, you may have a low speed fault, where neither comes on when required.
Just what you need in the hot weather. :x
0x
2003 C5 2.0i AL4 183,000 km 76372389

RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 8228
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: C4 Grand Picassos:
MK1 '08 1.6 HDi 110
MK2 '17 1.6 BlueHDi 120
x 208

Post by RichardW » 17 Jul 2006, 12:57

Sounds to me like the fan that doesn't run is U/S, and this is stopping the 'normal' function - which should be: both fans on slow at about 85°C; both fans on high at above 90°C; both fans on slow when A/C switched on (unless high temp or high A/C pressure). Sounds to me like you are getting high fan speed because of high A/C pressure - because the fans are not running normally to keep the condenser cool. Sometimes this gives an over temp warning on the dash - even though the gauge reads normal! Be worth reading through the threads - as it might be an electrical feed fault, rather than a fan fault (and you don't want to go removing the fan unless you HAVE to!). Sounds like the A/C comp was unplugged to hide the fan fault. You probably ought not to run the A/C too much in case you bugger the compressor :cry: Should be OK at anything over 30 mph when the fans do nothing anyway, but best avoided in traffic.

Note that both fans even on 'slow' makes quite a racket!
0x
Richard W
His and Hers C4 Grand Picassos!

Stewart(oily)
Posts: 800
Joined: 07 Oct 2005, 16:31
Location: Wales
My Cars:
x 5

Post by Stewart(oily) » 19 Jul 2006, 17:10

I tend to agree with you Richard, after reading the posts indicated by Clogzz I think I will try to replace the non running fan first, its a mark 2 so the black panel at least lets me see the fronts of the fans, I found a fan motor in a lower mileage Xantia in my local breakers and I am training a neighbours four year old to use a spanner so he should be able to reach in there :)
Stewart
0x
BXs since 1993, currently have one of the few 1.9TDs in captivity, sold on in 2006, got a S2 Xantia estate, brilliant car! 2013 mechanically karked it at 210,000 after breaking its cambelt, Xantia HDI LX 110 2000 new car with 122,000, lovely motor, getting to know it.

alan s
RIP 2010
Posts: 2542
Joined: 26 Jan 2001, 16:53
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 4

Post by alan s » 19 Jul 2006, 22:05

When the fan on mine cracked up, which was when I first got the car, I had one very strange thing happen.
The air/con would work when driving along the road and remember where I am, I drive about 700 metres from my front gate and it's a 100KPH zone, so I don't drive much in traffic until I hit town, as I reached our front gate, either my wife or myself would open the door to get out and coincidentally as soon as the door opened, you would hear the fan hit full speed.
My comment was that it seemed as though the air/con was running "on the limit" which in effect it was; it ran with the fan at normal speed until the car stopped and the door was opened.
At that point, the head pressure would have increased due to lack of air passing over the condensor and the suction pressure would have increased due to the sudden increase in load caused by the hot air entering the car as the door opened which in turn would have caused a further increase in head pressure due to the increased load, as a result, the HP/LP control on top of the filter/dryer woul;d have triggered which made the fan go full blast.
Thought I'd detail that so you can get an idea of how they can perform under certain sets of circumstances.
As regards gaining access; I personally feel that trying to get to these fans without pulling the entire front off runs a risk of damaging either the condensor or radiator and given the inconvenience and blood that is going to be spilt won't save much if any time IMO. I've done a couple now and I still reckon the long way would have to be the quickest and safest in the long run.


Alan S
0x
RIP Sept 19th 2008.

She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!

Stewart(oily)
Posts: 800
Joined: 07 Oct 2005, 16:31
Location: Wales
My Cars:
x 5

An update

Post by Stewart(oily) » 26 Jul 2006, 18:59

Well, over the weekend I had the radiator and intercooler off to see what is going on with the non working fan (and to deal with serpentine belt issues) I did not remove anything related to the A/C, its stopped again :oops: nothing, no fans no cold air, bridging the thicker wires on top of the drier does nothing, the engine temp can go to 95 and still no fans but the one will work if I pull the brown connector on the stat housing, temp gauge works normally throughout, I went to my local aircon guy who pressure tested the system and filled it again, he seemed to think that it did not have enough gas to run (but it had been) then again he seemed to erroneously think that only one fan was dedicated to the aircon, logic indicates to me that when I was originally filling the system from my areosol can and the system suddenly began to work that I was in fact nudging the fat bundle of wires running under the radiator so tomorrow I will examine these and see if I cant perform the miracle again, there must be a common link between working fan and aircon and where I am now, I will also attempt to remove the dead fan though its one with the blades held on by a clip and some very tenacious rust, maybe its dremel time :)
Stewart
0x
BXs since 1993, currently have one of the few 1.9TDs in captivity, sold on in 2006, got a S2 Xantia estate, brilliant car! 2013 mechanically karked it at 210,000 after breaking its cambelt, Xantia HDI LX 110 2000 new car with 122,000, lovely motor, getting to know it.

JBUK
Posts: 19
Joined: 18 May 2004, 04:00
Location:
My Cars:

Post by JBUK » 27 Jul 2006, 09:36

Stuart,

I think you may find that the non operative fan is not faulty.

You need to investigate the 12v supply for the non working fan to try and fix it. You could just have a failed fuse. If this is the case on your Xantia then, if the BOL is correct, F1 has failed. Other fuses in the circuit are F3 and F2.

This only applies to the normal rad cooling circuit. I dont have a circuit for aircon. I have read a lot of stuff though about the bitron unit playing up.

But if you can get the engine cooling up and running properly you can then start to look at the aircon fan issue - if it is still present afterwards.


Good luck, John.
0x
BX GTI 8v-290k - RIP
BX GTI 8v-96k +AC
BX TD Estate 74k
BX TD 187k +AC

Stewart(oily)
Posts: 800
Joined: 07 Oct 2005, 16:31
Location: Wales
My Cars:
x 5

Post by Stewart(oily) » 27 Jul 2006, 18:42

JBUK that is indeed the case, I followed citonuts advice and found the fans quite easy to remove from the front, tested off the car the dead fan did work, a trip to the breakers gained me a set of relays, a bitron unit and a brown temp sensor all from a 306 with aircon, jumping a live wire to some of the relay contacts on the front of the fans did make the dead fan spin up, I fitted the Bitron unit after cleaning its contacts and the temp sensor, the engine got up to 95 degrees without any fans coming on and the aircon clutch steadfastly refused to engage, pulled the brown connector off and the aircon came on with the fan (one) running full time, it appears that the normal part of the temperature sensing/fan operation just doesnt go :?: but with the fan running permanently due to the brown sensor being removed the aircon switches on and off normally, I reconnected the original bitron unit and lost aircon again so some of the evidence points there but I still only have one fan which only runs permanently at full speed due to the temp plug being in test mode?
Very confused but potentially cooler.
Stewart
0x
BXs since 1993, currently have one of the few 1.9TDs in captivity, sold on in 2006, got a S2 Xantia estate, brilliant car! 2013 mechanically karked it at 210,000 after breaking its cambelt, Xantia HDI LX 110 2000 new car with 122,000, lovely motor, getting to know it.

JBUK
Posts: 19
Joined: 18 May 2004, 04:00
Location:
My Cars:

Post by JBUK » 27 Jul 2006, 20:19

Stuart,

Time to go back to basics. The aircon fan activation just piggy backs onto the normal rad fan system. Usually its a case of fix one and you have fixed the other.

Have you got a wiring diagram ? I suggest you remove the rad fan switch connector. With ignition on you should have 12v on the input.

If no then trace back the circuit and look for 12v through the low speed relay (1500a) from fuse3.

If yes short the low speed and earth. This should pick the above low speed relay and provide 12v for the fans.

If the relay picks and you dont get any fans check fuse1 and look for 12v on the circuit which provides the voltage through both fans in series to give you low speed fan operation.

I feel that if you go through these steps you will be in a position to know if you are dealing with normal Xantia wiring or some tweaking by a previous owner.

I repeat I am just going from the schematic in the BOL.
0x
BX GTI 8v-290k - RIP
BX GTI 8v-96k +AC
BX TD Estate 74k
BX TD 187k +AC

User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2064
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 8

Post by Clogzz » 28 Jul 2006, 15:37

:mrgreen:

To work out what’s common to loss of low speed and only one fan spinning at high speed, we would need to know which fan isn’t working. :?
Here’s the Bitron controlled map:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17012
0x
2003 C5 2.0i AL4 183,000 km 76372389

Stewart(oily)
Posts: 800
Joined: 07 Oct 2005, 16:31
Location: Wales
My Cars:
x 5

Post by Stewart(oily) » 28 Jul 2006, 18:41

Thank you Clogzz, from the illustration it appears my right side fan is a non runner, time to look in the fusebox again, there appears not to be a visible numbering system in operation :? is ther any convention, ie start at the top left for number 1 (missing owners handbook) Haynes only partially useful, wiring diagrams really set off my slight dyslexia, harder than chinese algebra :(
Stewart
0x
BXs since 1993, currently have one of the few 1.9TDs in captivity, sold on in 2006, got a S2 Xantia estate, brilliant car! 2013 mechanically karked it at 210,000 after breaking its cambelt, Xantia HDI LX 110 2000 new car with 122,000, lovely motor, getting to know it.

JBUK
Posts: 19
Joined: 18 May 2004, 04:00
Location:
My Cars:

Post by JBUK » 28 Jul 2006, 21:27

Stuart the fuses I am on about - I think- are in the engine bay fusebox.
0x
BX GTI 8v-290k - RIP
BX GTI 8v-96k +AC
BX TD Estate 74k
BX TD 187k +AC

User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2064
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 8

Post by Clogzz » 29 Jul 2006, 16:16

Right side fan, as on the Peugeot map, as seen from the driver’s seat, the fan in front of the driver ?
If so, it’s not the fuse, because it’s not used at the low speed.
The only thing common to the right fan and low speed is the right fan earth wire.
I’ve got a numbering of fuses for the 1995 petrol in the owner’s manual, but it won’t be of use because the big 40 Amp fan fuses are outside the fuse box on that model, under black plastic covers between the wing and fuse box, in the red square on the picture.
You may have something similar, or as per JBUK, they could be inside the fuse box, but they are much bigger than ordinary fuses.

Slight dyslexia, Chinese algebra ? :shock:
How about a fiddle playing partition then ? :lol:

Image
0x
2003 C5 2.0i AL4 183,000 km 76372389