Problem with wiring to Compressor

Post your Cit/Peu/Ren air conditioning queries or advice.

Moderator: RichardW

User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2062
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 8
Contact:

Post by Clogzz » 04 Jul 2006, 12:25

Hi Kenny,

Nice to read about progress. :)
Your measurement does indicate that the Bitron doesn’t operate the left fan relay.
Where the Bitron earths on the 1.9 TD, I don’t know because the only finding I’ve made is on my own petrol 2 litre-engined car, where the Bitron lives in the fuse box under the bonnet.

It looks like the Bitron earth is a wire in the Bitron loom, not an earthing near the battery.
By removing the battery, you should be able to see the Bitron wiring loom, and follow the wires.
The photos are of a Bitron and loom on a diesel car, with no nearby earthings showing.
The Bitron earth may still be OK, but if the Bitron doesn’t operate, it won’t earth pin 2 of the left fan relay.

The problem I’ve had with the Bitron, I cured by scraping all 15 Bitron pins with the rough end of a broken piece of metals hacksaw blade, and then swept out the solder scraps.
The Bitron pins are tinned with solder, and go intermittent at times.
I first tried cleaning them with WD40, but that’s only been good for a few days, while the scrape job still lasts.

We read of cases where replacing the Bitron fixes the fan faults, but I think that they include instances where the clean pins of the new Bitron fixed the fault.
It looks like the internals of the Bitron are rarely failing.
If you can reach the Bitron to remove it, I would suggest a scrape of all the pins, and then let it dangle outside to test.

Enjoy a good fiddle. :D
Terry.

Image Image
0 x
2003 C5 2.0i AL4 183,000 km 76372389

User avatar
KennyW
Donor 2016
Posts: 1525
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 22:22
Location: NEWTONGRANGE,MIDLOTHIAN
My Cars:
x 9

Post by KennyW » 04 Jul 2006, 15:22

Hi Terry,

A further update, looked at all the connections and everything appears clean and rust free.
But I cannot trace briton earth wire :? ,

Could this be earth through bolts to body work on Briton itself.

As I fitted battery and put my tester from pin 2 to earth and both fans spun at low speed.

Cheers Kenny
0 x
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.

User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2062
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 8
Contact:

Post by Clogzz » 05 Jul 2006, 13:15

Hi Kenny,

According to the Peugeot map, pin 8 of the Bitron is the earth.
It’s possible that they use the mounting bolts as earth, but I’ve got no certainty about that, :? because on mine they definitively use pin 8, which has a loom wire going to it.

From what I remember, the loom socket has pin numbers molded into it in very small numbers.
There are 2 rows of pins; first row pins 1 to 8, and second row pins 9 to 15, which are offset in relation to the first row.

Pin 4 is the permanent 12V supply for the Bitron.
Pin 1 earths to switch on the left fan relay.
Pin 10 earths to switch on the right fan relay and change-over relay.
Pin 6 turns on the overheat warning light, and the STOP light.
Pins 7 & 14 are the brown temperature sensor.
Pin 15 supplies 12V to the Bitron when the ignition is switched on.

Pins 5, 11 & 13 have to do with sensing what the aircon pressure sensor switch is doing to operate the compressor clutch, but how that goes, I don’t know, :? because I haven’t had cause to explore that area yet.

Places to measure would be pin 4 of the Bitron for permanent 12V.
Pin 15 for 12V with ignition on, and coming through fuse F2 under the dash.
Since pulling out the brown sensor does opearate one fan at the high speed, the supplies can be expected to be normal.
Pin 8 going to earth.
If there’s a loom wire going to pin 8, then the Bitron is earthed through it.

Maybe also check the wire from pin 1 of the Bitron to pin 2 of the left fan relay socket, because that's where it doesn't work.
When you put the tester from pin 1 of the Bitron to earth, it should also start the fans at the low speed.

Hope you keep enjoying the investigation. :D
Terry.
0 x
2003 C5 2.0i AL4 183,000 km 76372389

alan s
RIP 2010
Posts: 2542
Joined: 26 Jan 2001, 16:53
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 4

Post by alan s » 05 Jul 2006, 13:43

Terry,

HP/LP pressure switch arrived today. Cost $23 trade, supposedly around A$40 retail.

It's a "Jayair" part # PS4132 with specs shown on the casing of :

HP - 28

MP - 17.5

LP - 2.1

It has 2 X "T" shaped double spade terminals one of which has 2 X black with green stripe wires attached. It would be a safe bet to say that will be where the two heavy yellow wires on the existing plug goes, and the other two will be a trial and error match up I would expect. This shouldn't be real hard to decipher once the system is operating.

Hope that is some help when it comes time to do the replacement. Also do a double check on the receiver dryer as we found with the BX that it takes the same one as a Camira and can be bought for around A$35 again from Repco.
You possibly may even buy directly from Jayair who I think may be in either Melbourne or Adelaide.


Alan S

P.S. Haven't changed your mind about tackling the joys of Brisbane gridlocks on Sunday and putting in an appearance at the FCD at UQ?
0 x
RIP Sept 19th 2008.

She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!

User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2062
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 8
Contact:

Post by Clogzz » 05 Jul 2006, 15:09

Hi Alan,

Many thanks for this, :D I have copied and pasted it for safekeeping.
There will be some wire tracing to do, as my pressure switch has 5 wires coming to it, but only 4 connecting pins.
There’s one thin wire that obviously does nothing, but I’ve got to work out which one yet. :?

As for the expedition to Brisbane on Sunday, very sorry, but the prospect of the trip is too abhorrent to consider. Image
Last Sunday, SHE drove to Wellington Point to visit a relative, and it took her nearly 2 hours for the return trip, and that’s without having to go through Brisbane. :shock:
Last night, returning from work in Southport after dark in light rain, accidents in 4 places over the 18 km to Palm Beach. :evil:

I very much would like the opportunity to put ‘faces on names’, but having moved from Sydney to the Gold Coast to land in traffic problems as we have here is very aggravating, especially the Queensland traffic lights that are extremely slow to turn green. :x
Looks like Sydney’s got more chance of solving its traffic problems than this place. :twisted:

Regards,
Terry.
0 x
2003 C5 2.0i AL4 183,000 km 76372389

alan s
RIP 2010
Posts: 2542
Joined: 26 Jan 2001, 16:53
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 4

Post by alan s » 05 Jul 2006, 22:56

Now you know why I moved out in 1987. :wink:
I was doing service work so was driving in it up to 12 hours a day; I lived in 7th Avenue at the time.
May have to come to Southport sometime next week somay be able to give you a holler then, but it's an 800+ klms round trip from here so time will be a factor.


Alan S
0 x
RIP Sept 19th 2008.

She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!

User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2062
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 8
Contact:

Post by Clogzz » 06 Jul 2006, 14:04

Hi Alan,

Over 2 years ago, the same distance to work and back in Sydney was quicker than here. :evil:
I remember one of your posts about catching the inventors of the 24-hour day, but if you do make it to Southport, I work at 5/50 Johnston Street, SAECO coffee machines, and the Xantia will be in the back lane.

Regards,
Terry.
0 x
2003 C5 2.0i AL4 183,000 km 76372389

User avatar
KennyW
Donor 2016
Posts: 1525
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 22:22
Location: NEWTONGRANGE,MIDLOTHIAN
My Cars:
x 9

Post by KennyW » 06 Jul 2006, 22:01

Hi Terry,

Thanks again for the reply, a fountain of knowledge :wink:

when I placed my tester across the pin 1 briton to earth the fans spun.
can't remember if ignition was on or off I think on.
But I've noticed they only spin for about 5 secs then cut out :?:
If you do it again they start spinning again for 5 secs :?:

I noticed this when testing with my circuit tester.

I've also acquired from my son-in-law a mutlimeter.

This happened all the time during my testing but I was so happy to have fans spinning :roll:

I'm going to change my earth from bodywork to -ve terminal on battery

Also ,I've found how to understand the wiring better the numbers written in the BOL and Peugeotlogic at each connection are stamped in the wires.

I know I'm close but not sure where the problem lies.
But I know for definite there was some sort of fault from the pin2 L.H.R. to pin1 briton as when ignition was on or off no bulb lit on my circuit tester.

Will bash on here on Friday after work and the weekend as I'm off.

Cheers

Kenny W
0 x
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.

User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2062
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 8
Contact:

Post by Clogzz » 07 Jul 2006, 13:06

Hi Kenny,

Doubts about the fountain of knowledge, :? as we are getting close to the operation of the Bitron, and how it senses the indications of the pressure sensor switch, and how it controls the compressor clutch.

The 5 seconds seem to be the time that the Bitron needs to find out that the fans shouldn’t spin.
The only time the fans have to spin at the low speed with the ignition off, is when the coolant temperature sensor finds that the water is at over 90ºC.
According to the Bitron, the fans should only spin at the low speed when the engine is running with the air conditioner switched on, or when the water temperature is over 90ºC.
If they are made to spin with the ignition off, and the Bitron finds no high temperature from the coolant sensor connected to pins 7 & 14, it turns them off by disconnecting its pin 1.

I have instances where after parking the car and taking the key out, the fans start spinning at the low speed to cool the water for a few minutes.
Pin 1 of the left relay and pin 4 of the Bitron have permanent 12V supplies to enable them to operate the fans at the low speed when the key is out.

This 5 second phase is another indication that the Bitron must be working.
To work out if the loss of the low speed is caused by an aircon fault, it’s possible to test the Bitron and fans for reaction to the engine getting hot.
After a drive that gets the engine up to normal working temperature, say over 5 miles, let the engine idle for a few minutes, and the fans should come on at the low speed to cool the water, even with the aircon switched off.
This is of course while keeping a beady eye on the temperature gauge, for in case the fans weren’t starting.
If they don’t start, we may have a Bitron fault.
The fans and relays are good, since they always start when earthing pin 1 of the Bitron.
If they do start when the engine is hot, and not when the aircon is turned on, we have an aircon-induced fault.

Have a nice weekend under the bonnet. :D

Terry.
0 x
2003 C5 2.0i AL4 183,000 km 76372389

User avatar
KennyW
Donor 2016
Posts: 1525
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 22:22
Location: NEWTONGRANGE,MIDLOTHIAN
My Cars:
x 9

Post by KennyW » 10 Jul 2006, 10:39

Hi Terry,

I had a minor mishap on Saturday and injured my forearm, now got 3 stitches in the wound :oops:

But car had trip to Fife and back where the temp gauge was all over the place from normal op temp to zero and any reading in between. :?

Would this cause the briton problems, as the fans were not running at low speed with A/C on :?:

Will see if able to drive today and carry out your test today on previous post.

Also , Is it worth bridging the connections to the clutch on compressor to see what happens :?:

Hear from you soon

Kenny.
0 x
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.

User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2062
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 8
Contact:

Post by Clogzz » 10 Jul 2006, 13:48

Hi Kenny,

Sorry to read of your injury, and of the stitches, it sends shivers down my spine. :cry:
Hope that it didn’t happen while working on the car, and that you recover soon.

From reading the previous pages of this topic, it looks like the aircon can work if you bridge the clutch, and is worth trying.
You would also need to bridge the left fan relay pins 3 & 4 to make the fans spin to blow air across the condenser.

From what I think, it’s the blue sensor on the thermostat housing that operates the gauge.
It probably has an intermittent contact, and may need a clean or tightening of the connector.
It may affect the aircon, but unfortunately, I’m not sure about that.
There is a third sensor on the thermostat housing, don’t remember what colour, and it’s used for the heater/aircon control module I think.
Quite a bit of a delayed reaction here, but there is a post from ‘BonceChops’ that I can’t find, where he explains that the heater/aircon control module is under the dash, to the right of the interior fan, slotted somewhere up towards the centre of the dash, and would unclip to pull downwards.
It would have several plugs with many wires, and have the elusive ‘aircon relay’ on it.
Most of the wires are to operate the motorised flaps and vents.
This module is prone to dry joints that need resoldering, especially the relay, that would be a known area of dry joints on the Peugeot 405.
I’ll explore for the Peugeot link with picture of that, and post it here.

‘Talk soon’. :)
Terry.


Found it, and the drawing at the bottom has 'clickable' sections:

http://www.peugeotlogic.com/workshop/ws ... /ac405.htm
0 x
2003 C5 2.0i AL4 183,000 km 76372389

User avatar
KennyW
Donor 2016
Posts: 1525
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 22:22
Location: NEWTONGRANGE,MIDLOTHIAN
My Cars:
x 9

Post by KennyW » 10 Jul 2006, 14:50

Hi Terry,

Unfortunately the injury was as a result of working on the car but NOT due the ongoing problem but the bumper :!: :oops:

Moving on swiftly, :wink: Latest update followed your suggestion re drive etc and this is the result. Engine at normal op temp was left to idle and bingo :) , the fans came on at low speed A/C was switched on).

The A/C appears to be working as sorts as cool air is coming throught the vents.

Will try your suggestions in latest posting and post results.Have looked at Bonechops posting and viewed Peugeotlogic link recently.Must admit blower is sounding a bit noisy but working at various speeds.(maybe the next project :!: :wink: )

Cheers

Kenny
0 x
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.

User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2062
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 8
Contact:

Post by Clogzz » 10 Jul 2006, 15:17

Hi Kenny,

Apart from the injury, :cry: it's all good news. :D
Since the fans come on at the low speed when the engine gets hot, it's certain that the Bitron is working.
There may still be a high-speed fault if only one fan comes on with the brown sensor disconnected.

If the vent temperature is a bit vague, you can still check on the workings of the aircon by listening for the loud click-on sound from the aircon clutch when it engages.
Also, if it works, one of the pipes to the compressor must get cold and be covered in condensation.

The noisy blower may just be that it's been used without pollen filter, and leaf matter has got into the blades.
Looks like you've almost made it, congratulations. =D> \:D/

Back tomorrow,
Terry.
0 x
2003 C5 2.0i AL4 183,000 km 76372389

alan s
RIP 2010
Posts: 2542
Joined: 26 Jan 2001, 16:53
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 4

Post by alan s » 10 Jul 2006, 21:54

I'm sort of a bit on & off here as regards following this thread as I usually have phones ringing and people dragging me away all the time, but if I have the gist of the current situation, then I take it things started happening when the pressure switch on the receiver dryer was bridged; if so, then if the air con is cool as opposed to cold, check the sight glass on top of the receiver/dryer and see if it is full of bubbles and if so, it is just the switch doing its job and the system needs regassing.
If the refrigeration side of the operation is functioning correctly but nothing working until the switch is bridged, then you need a new HP/LP switch on top of the receiver.



Alan S
0 x
RIP Sept 19th 2008.

She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!

User avatar
KennyW
Donor 2016
Posts: 1525
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 22:22
Location: NEWTONGRANGE,MIDLOTHIAN
My Cars:
x 9

Post by KennyW » 11 Jul 2006, 18:41

Thanks for the reply AlanS,

Unfortunately when I went to make my bridging connection and I found I didn't correct size of connections.
I will post result as soon as I get them.

P.S. System has just been regassed with a new reciever/drier and no bubbles in view glass.
Maybe faulty clutch on compressor hence my reason for bridging connections.

Cheers
Kenny
0 x
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests