Problem with wiring to Compressor

Post your Cit/Peu/Ren air conditioning queries or advice.

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KennyW
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Post by KennyW » 26 Jun 2006, 17:02

Hi Terry,

Re above posting,

Fixed the blown fuse it was fuse No 2 in the facia fuse box, possibly when fiddling with Air-Con.

Kenny
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C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.

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Post by Clogzz » 27 Jun 2006, 11:57

Hi Kenny,

If I’ve got it right, the car starts again, but the low speed only works with pins 3 & 5 of the left fan relay bridged, and also pins 3 & 4 of the change-over relay.
It does look then that it’s the change-over relay at fault.
At the low speed, pins 3 & 4 are closed, without the relay being energised.
If you put the left fan relay back in with aircon switched on, the result should be the same.
The wire loop you ‘retrieve’ :) from the left relay socket, you could use to test the change-over relay.
One wire of the test lamp to the battery positive, the other lamp wire to pin 3.
Pin 4 to earth, and if the lamp stays out, the relay is open when it should be closed between pins 3 & 4, even when out of the socket.
You may have to get a change-over relay meant for the Xantia from a parts merchant.
According to the Viking, about £3.

Good luck,
Terry.


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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:20 am Post subject: POSSIBLY RELAYS............MINE WAS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Had the same problem with both my 2000 HDI SX and my 1996 1.9TD SX, both times luckily it was the relays, i simply replaced the 3 relays situated in the triangular unit between both fans and no problems at all after that. I paid £3.19 per relay at my local Motor World shop but im sure you will be able to find a cheaper supplier....Regards Colin
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Post by KennyW » 27 Jun 2006, 13:44

Hi Terry ,

As you said , the fans work on low speed when I crossed the appropriate connections.
Will purchase new relays and see what happens.

Cheers
Kenny
0x
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.

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Post by alan s » 27 Jun 2006, 22:06

alan s wrote:I had a head off a Pug Mi16and had a brown plug I forgot to replace which soon reminded me when I turned the key on.
When I found this off, I grabbed a mirror attached to a flexible arm and with a spotlight shining into the general area, I found the plug socket and slid my arm in under the thermo housing and pushed it home.
Trick was to have the spring clip partway out of its socket and hold with a finger until it was started and push it into the socket and then push the clip in. (Whilst reciting the Lords Prayer and keeping the eyes shut all at the same time.) :roll: :roll: :oops:


Alan S :wink:


Thought I'd ad a PS to this.

Was back on the job yesterday and was reassembling a few things and the cable to the engine temp sensor plug was in the way of where I was working, so I took a closer look at how I got access to it. As I mentioned previously, on the Mi16 with the head off, it was a simple matter of locating exactly where it went, but to access it readily, you need to remove the sections of the fresh air intake from the firewall back to where it attaches to the front section.
I know that sounds like drama, but doesn't take all that long and from working on Cits for 20 odd years, I find that this is often their way of giving good access by making it that you need to remove something ekse to get to things easier.
BTW, my rebuilt fans are running smooth as silk. Still a few gremlins to cover, but so far I'm reasonably happy with the way it's all coming up.
Hope your problems are soon all sorted.


Alan S
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She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!

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Post by Clogzz » 28 Jun 2006, 14:25

The BOL’s got it right about this:

"On some models, access to the switch is very poor, and other components may need to be removed before the sender unit can be reached ".

I never got to the brown switch, because that fault got cured for good by scraping the Bitron pins with the rough end of a piece of broken metals hacksaw blade.
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Post by KennyW » 30 Jun 2006, 11:20

Hi Terry,

Fitted 3 new relays and made sure the were correct ones :!:
Bingo :cry: nothing happened :twisted: :evil:
Took off temp plug and left hand fan spun at full speed.
Checked all fuses in engine comp OK.
What I am going to try is re connecting the pins for the low speed fan circuit again.
But when I did it previously I think I did not have the A/C switched on.

In your infinite wisdom ,will this make a difference and could the original test indictae a short somewhere which resulted in blow fuse 2 in the facia fuse box.

Unable to do this , this weekend, working but off Mon and Tues.

Any suggestions from anybody out there welcome.

Cheers

KennyW
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C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.

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Post by Clogzz » 30 Jun 2006, 16:12

Hi Kenny,

No infinite wisdom on my part, it's just that I've become good at 'map reading' over the years. :)
When you previously shorted pins 3 & 5 of the left fan relay socket, and pins 3 &4 of the change-over relay socket, it was meant to operate the low speed even with the air conditioning switched off, because by doing that you were supplying the fans without energising the relays, so all is normal there.
Fuse 2 under the dash, according to the Peugeot map, supplies the Bitron, and other unrelated circuits.
When it blew, it’s probable that testing with wire loops caused a temporary short on pins 2 of the change-over and right fan relay sockets, that are the Bitron output for the high speed.
The Bitron does work, because when you pull the brown sensor off, the left fan spins at the high speed.
We’ll have made it when we find why the right fan doesn’t spin then.
According to the Peugeot ‘high speed’ map, even with the key out, if you short pins 3 & 5 of the right relay socket, the right fan must spin at the high speed.
If not, it’s the big fuse, the blue coloured supply wires, the motor or a dodgy motor earth.

And, if I may say … have a nice weekend on the job. :D

Regards,
Terry.
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Post by KennyW » 30 Jun 2006, 22:16

Hi Terry,

Will carry out connections as suggested in last paragraph
but silly question time when you refer to the motor which motor and where do these blue wires run from and too and finally the big fuses ie 40 amp in engine compartment.

Checked all big fuses in engine compartment and they are okay.

Once again replies greatfully received.

Cheers

Kenny.

P.S.

I'm promming over the weekend not quite bondi beach but it's the best we've got here and the weather supposed to be nice.
Packed my suitcase with towel ,cream sunblock etc :)
As one of my colleagues says somebody as got do it :!: :!: :!: :D
0x
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.

alan s
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Post by alan s » 01 Jul 2006, 05:38

OK, the end of a saga.
After trawling through a variety of problems and general maintenance issues, I decided to wrap it up by concentrating on the lack of air/con and did a general component check.
It was discovered that there has been some work done to wiring to the Bitron (God bless 'em) [-o< and the greenish tinge in the sight glass on the receiver drier pointed to this "let's put a tracer dye in it and see if the problem goes away" syndrome. However a check of the HP/LP switch on top of the filter dryer showed all was not kosher there, so as a test, I bridged the two heavy yellow wires; this caused the compressor to cut in and the fans to both spin.
A few bubbles appeared in the sight glass and eventually it settled down to a fairly clear situation and got extremely cold very quickly.
Upon removing the switch I found it rattled like a jam tin with rocks in it, so set about trying to buy another switch.
Got the usual "Ahh, it's orf a Sitrun? - geez mayte, that's gunna be a bit rare an' costa forchune" until I eventually found someone with a little bit of nouse who understood that Citroen or any car manufacturer (apart from possibly Mitsubuishi) don't physically make their own air/con systems and we discover that of all things, it looked the same as one off a Barina. None available, has to be special (non returnable) order A$75+ and no specs to compare. So....I went and spoke to another repairer I know who trotted out his catalogue, did a comparison on the specs with a generic one, told be that I need to cut off the 4 pin plug and replace with either 2 off "T" shaped double plugs or 4 single spades. I've opted for the 2 X "T" variety and the cost? < A$30 including air freight from halfway around the country.
I'll post the part number/specs when it arrives possibly early part of next week, as I reckon it could be handy info for anyone over there looking for one as I'm fairly certain I have heard it said the prices they charge over there for some of these parts are a bit on the high side.


Alan S
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She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!

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Post by Clogzz » 01 Jul 2006, 15:45

KennyW wrote:silly question time

Hi Kenny,

It doesn’t look like anybody here treats any question as being silly, but this topic must have got close:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=18035 :lol:

And sorry for causing confusion, I should have written that out properly.
The ‘big fuse’ is the 40 Amp fuse under the bonnet, shown as F34 on the Peugeot ‘high speed’ diagram, but you had checked that already.
The ‘motor’ was meant to be the right fan motor.
The ‘blue wires’ are the two supply wires coloured in blue on the Peugeot high speed map, going from the 40A fuse to the right fan relay first, then to the right fan motor, and also the yellow wire from the right fan motor to the earth.

Bondi beach and others have been in the news over the recent months, with the yobbos going on the rampage, and the riot squad getting called in. :shock:
There were road blockages, people travelling to those places getting stopped and asked what they were going to do there, and even their mobile phones checked for riot-related SMS messages. :shock:
So, Edinburgh looks good these days. :D

Regards,
Terry.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
alan s wrote:some work done to wiring to the Bitron (God bless 'em) [-o< … I bridged the two heavy yellow wires; this caused the compressor to cut in and the fans to both spin.

Lovely bodgie ! :D
Normally, the air conditioning switch tells the Bitron to start the fans, and the compressor kicks in a few seconds later.
And thanks for the valuable information, Alan, because my turn isn’t far behind, with the sight glass showing a lot of brown froth.
The car is nearly 11 years old, and the aircon has never been touched.
With the ‘cold’ weather now, the aircon trade will arrive with ‘specials’ to keep themselves off the streets until it warms up, and I won’t waste the opportunity.
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Post by KennyW » 02 Jul 2006, 17:42

Thanks Terry,

I'm going to try the following tomorrow,

1. leave the left fan and right fan relays in and bridge pins 3 and 4 on the change over relay to see if the fans run at low speed with ignition on and A/C switched on
2. If successful will then try the temp sensor trick to activate high speed .

Anybody out there who has any knowledge which suggests this will not work please reply or any other suggestions will be gratefully accepted.

Cheers
Kenny
0x
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.

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Post by KennyW » 03 Jul 2006, 09:45

Here's the update,

I took the 3 relays out and bridged the connections again pin 3 and 5 on left hand relay and pins 3 an 4 on change over relay and both fans ran at low speed.
Removed bridging wire from left hand relay and inserted new relay and switched on ignition, nothing :cry: Also when ignition was switched on ,NO clicking sound came from the relay :!:

Bridged again and fans ran :?

So, I bridged all connections on left hand relay and fans ran :?

Replaced bridging wire from changeover relay with relay and they (fans) ran with bridging connections in the left hand relay.

I'm now confused.

Checked ALL the fuses and OK

Question , Are there any other relays in the Xantia system which will affect the operation since in the peugeot wiring diagrams there is a compressor cut off relay.

The reason I'm asking the are 3 relays in the engine bay compartment box coloured green exact same as fan relays, purple and black.

Looking for suggestions.

Cheers

Kenny
0x
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.

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Post by Clogzz » 03 Jul 2006, 13:01

Hi Kenny,

The left relay must click on only when the aircon is turned on.
Turning the ignition on without aircon won’t make it click on.

The left fan relay not clicking on is pin 1 that’s not supplied, or pin 2 that’s not getting earthed by the Bitron when the aircon is turned on.
With the test lamp poked into pin 1 of the left relay socket, and the other lamp wire to earth, the lamp must light all the time, even with the key out.
If not, you have the DaveW fault, where the permanent supply to pin 1 of the left relay coil is interrupted.
He fixed that by running a new wire from the battery to pin 1 of the left relay socket because the fuses showed to be OK.

The Peugeot map shows fuse F7 under the dash as supplying pin 1 of the left relay.
If the supply is present on pin 1, then the fault is pin 2 not getting earthed by the Bitron to energise the left relay coil.
To test for that, with the aircon turned on, put the lamp between pins 1 & 2 of the left relay socket, and it should light with 12V on pin 1, and pin 2 earthed by the Bitron.
If not, the Bitron doesn’t turn the left relay on, or the wire from pin 1 of the Bitron to pin 2 of the left relay socket is open.

The compressor cut-off relay is operated by both the Bitron and the aircon pressure sensor switch.
That may be a green relay under the bonnet, but I don’t know which one.
I do know that disconnecting the aircon pressure sensor switch doesn’t affect the fans, they keep spinning at the low speed.
Hoping this will be helpful, rather than causing more confusion. :)

Best wishes,
Terry.
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Post by KennyW » 03 Jul 2006, 14:56

Hi Terry,

Here's the latest, I think we have turned a corner. :)

Pin 1 is being supplied permanently whether ignition is off or on.

Put my circuit tester across Pin 1 and 2 with ignition switched on and A/C on and nothing.

Therefore as you stated either a fault between pins 1 and 2 or Briton is not earthing.

Question, does the Briton earth beside the battery on the wing or elsewhere :?:

Cheers

Kenny
0x
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.

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Post by KennyW » 04 Jul 2006, 11:46

Further update :lol:

I've managed to remove the the fan assembly and can access the rear. 8)

This is what I've found

Left hand fan is the one you look at from the front of the car NOT from the driver's seat. Confirmed by following the wiring.The colours for the wires are nothing like the diagram in the BOL.

Therefore my original problems was the left hand fan NOT spinning at full speed and hence the reason for the low speed not working etc.

Bridging the connections obviously bypasses the problem and the problem would appear to be the connections between the briton and the fan or earthing.

Cheers Kenny
0x
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.