Xantia - no internal fan

Post your Cit/Peu/Ren air conditioning queries or advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Mabbs
Posts: 18
Joined: 24 Dec 2005, 22:18

Xantia - no internal fan

Post by Mabbs » 24 Dec 2005, 22:39

My Xantia's ('96 TD SX) internal fans have become semi-permenatly non operative. They will operate occasionally upon start up and continue to run effectively (apart from one occasion when adjusting the fan speed had no effect) until the vehicle is turned off, sometimes they will operate on the next occasion. The fan motor has been checked and has been declared fine. When adjusting the temperature and series of noises and appropriate adjustments are made to the temperature of the ram air. Aircon grille fans operate when a/c turned on, however a/c pump does not appear to put load on engine, and there is no noticeable drop in air temperature, on the rare occasions when the internal fans are working.

Any thoughts on what to check?

alan s
RIP 2010
Posts: 2542
Joined: 26 Jan 2001, 16:53
x 5

Post by alan s » 25 Dec 2005, 03:45

I have heard it said that the power for the internal fan is sourced from the ignition switch and the wiring and contacts simply degrade due to the high amperage. It has been suggested that a better system is to attach the supply lead to the power supply for the cig lighter which is heavier wire and fuse etc and that this will cure the problem.
I have the same problem with mine in that it will work on auto 90% of the time but if I'm in Town and stop and start a few times within a few minutes, it will just refuse to start until I stop the engine, turn off the key and restart and rarely will it operate manually, so I reckon the aforementioned theory may be spot on.
As I live in the tropics, I really should get it done but haven't ventured into the wiring so far because I don't have a wiring diagram and I'm not sure where the wire is on the ignition switch, but inevitably it'll crack up on me on a 40 degree day and I'll have to sort it.
If anyone can supply the wiring info, I think we'll both be grateful.


Alan S

Mabbs
Posts: 18
Joined: 24 Dec 2005, 22:18

Post by Mabbs » 25 Dec 2005, 12:52

Thanks for that will try your suggested cure and let you know.

Rich

User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2069
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
x 13

Post by Clogzz » 26 Dec 2005, 11:02

alan s wrote:it'll crack up on me on a 40 degree day
Yes, say early next month, in time for a long sweltering summer. :shock:

Below are pictures, maps and a link to a previous thread on the subject.
The 2 maps are the same, except for the addition of the fuse and relay.
The fuse holder is an in-line heavy-duty type, about $3 from Repco, including the 30A fuse.
The maps are for non air-conditioned models, but with aircon it’s actually simpler, because we switch the supply to the blower, instead of going to the speed controls.
The brown plug marked ‘MR’ going to the ignition switch has the unfused 12 Volts from the battery on wire 1, and wire 2 is the switched feed to the blower motor and rear window demister.
It's this switched contact that fails when there's high current to the blower.
In most cases, it will still be good to operate the relay.
Otherwise, as per Anders' post, preferably using wire 1 of the grey plug to avoid loading the battery with the blower motor current when cranking on non-aircon models.
Simplest is to draw a thick new wire to supply the blower, from wire 1 on the brown plug, and to keep the switched wire 2 to operate the relay, dangled inside the cover on the passenger's side.

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=16871

Black plug NR wire 1: Unfused permanent 12 Volts from battery.
Black plug NR wire 2: 12V out when starting only.

Grey plug GR wire 1: 12V out on ignition and accessories.
Grey plug GR wire 2: 12V out on starting and ignition.

Brown plug MR wire 1: Unfused permanent 12V from battery.
Brown plug MR wire 2: 12V out on ignition only.

Image Image Image
Image Image Image
Last edited by Clogzz on 05 Oct 2008, 15:31, edited 1 time in total.

Mabbs
Posts: 18
Joined: 24 Dec 2005, 22:18

Post by Mabbs » 27 Dec 2005, 13:33

Spot on! New feed crimed on to supply pre ignition switch. Fan motor now up to speed and behaving correctly. Supply post ignition switch was only 2.2 v, didn't stand a chance of driving the fan motor. Now for the aircon...... :( :cry:

Mabbs
Posts: 18
Joined: 24 Dec 2005, 22:18

Post by Mabbs » 27 Dec 2005, 13:50

As I understand then the heated rear screen should'nt operate either - ie it'll be using the same feed @ 2.2 volts. Any simple fix for this then? Should I include an inline fuse? Thanks guys for the advise.

User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2069
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
x 13

Post by Clogzz » 27 Dec 2005, 14:09

Mabbs wrote:Now for the aircon...... :( :cry:
Open the bonnet and stand at the open driver's door, then turn on the air conditioning.
The clutch on the compressor should engage with a loud click, that you can't miss.
If it doesn't, check and clean the plug/socket to the clutch.

How cold is it in Swansea now ?
There are stories of the air conditioning not kicking in unless the temperature is above 4ºC, but then, I would expect that the fans wouldn't start either.

If the air conditioning is low on gas, then it may not start either.
There are 2 other plug/connectors to check higher up on the bottles of the aircon.
The answers may be in other threads in this section.
I'll look up for my own benefit too. :lol:

The current for the rear window demister doesn't go through the ignition switch.
It operates a relay and timer that only take low current.
Since the blower motor is disconnected from the switch, the voltage may have risen to 12 V since.
On my car, I did nothing about the rear demister, and it still works.
The fauly contact is usually still good for low current.

And yes, I would compellingly install a fuse, say 30 Amps, because there's no other fusing, and with the modification now causing the blower to be permanently supplied, it's a very wise precaution.
Best would be to operate the blower via a relay.

alan s
RIP 2010
Posts: 2542
Joined: 26 Jan 2001, 16:53
x 5

Post by alan s » 27 Dec 2005, 22:58

Clogzz wrote:
alan s wrote:it'll crack up on me on a 40 degree day
Yes, say early next month, in time for a long sweltering summer. :shock:
Thanks for that, I'll now have to either get up early enough to get under the dash before sun up so I don't expire or wait for a cooler day.

Incidentally, where I am, we're already constantly getting the 40 deg. days and have been for a few weeks. :roll: :roll:

With regards to the air/con, that is correct regarding the cut in temp; there has to be a downwards linit or yoy turn the car into a butchers freezer if things malfunction, but you may find that this will solve problems there also as there is a circulation fan under the dash which helps activate the thermostat and if this is also connected to the same wiring or circuit, then chances are it was also non functional and therefoore won't trigger the temp control and hence the compressor. Wait for a warmer day to try it.


Alan S

Mabbs
Posts: 18
Joined: 24 Dec 2005, 22:18

Post by Mabbs » 28 Dec 2005, 13:28

Having a coldish snap in the UK 0 - 6 oC. But when it was milder there was no distinct clicking, yet the additional cooling fans were cutting in. Incidentally the sight glass has a faint blue/green colour, but very weak with no bubbles - how do I tell if I need a regas? Thanks

User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2069
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
x 13

Post by Clogzz » 28 Dec 2005, 15:28

With weather as you have there now, it may be impossible to test the air conditioning.
The sight glass is normally a faint blue, and you should see bubbles when turning the aircon on.
If you stand at the open driver's door, with the bonnet up, and switch on the aircon, you should hear a loud 'click' coming from the compressor clutch.
Dirty contacts on the clutch switching connector may also cause it not to work.
Too cold now, but if the aircon circuit is normal, one pipe to the compressor should be very cold when running.
Looks like you may have to wait for a 'soft' day to test.
Cheer up, that may be by the week-end.
If you're freezing there, don't think that we live in paradise here.
It's so hot here that the plants only grow in winter ! :shock:
Rainfall where we are is about 1700 mm per year, over double the rate of where you are, and despite that, the grass is shriveling up and turning brown. :shock:

alan s
RIP 2010
Posts: 2542
Joined: 26 Jan 2001, 16:53
x 5

Post by alan s » 01 Jan 2006, 00:22

Well I guessed right; 40+ and sure enough, it died on me.

The mods as per instructions above have been followed and it now operates as it should.

Thanks to all who contributed.


Alan S

andmcit
Posts: 4301
Joined: 03 Mar 2005, 18:59

Post by andmcit » 08 Aug 2006, 00:25

Rightho guys - I HATE messing around with car electrics (guess I like the wrong make of car then here! :wink: ) and this isn't one of my strengths with Citroen spannering - show me a head gasket/clutch change job any day!

BUT I do want my ventilation blower and HRW working when our nice hot summer weather ends next week!

Forgive me for being a tad slow electrically here :roll: , but just so that I've got it clear, in simple layman's terms you're 'piggybacking' into the existing brown twin wire multi plug connection on the ignition switches multi plug (leaving that as it's intended to be) and feeding a direct power supply via a relay switch from the fag lighter power supply? Are the wires on the ignition switch numbered

I'm Ok with the principle of a direct power feed from as direct as possible from the battery to a circuit that doesn't have the juice as the starter solenoid on a CX diesel I always had hassles getting started could be directly triggered by a direct wire uncoupled feed wire from the +ve to the solenoid when the car's ignition was on (and out of gear...!) to make a more permanent fix a relax was wired in to save opening the bonnet.

Any further clarification will be greatly appreciated!

Andrew

User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2069
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
x 13

Post by Clogzz » 08 Aug 2006, 14:01

:mrgreen:

Haven’t used the fag lighter because I didn’t trust its wire with the 20 Amp fuse.
The blower motor fuse is originally 30 Amp, with wire to match.
It does look like many have tapped into the fag lighter wire without any problems.

The fag lighter is supplied all the time, and therefore the relay must be put in the supply to the blower, to disconnect it from the permanent supply when the ignition is off.
A good few air-conditioned Xantiae :mrgreen: went for wrecking because of dash fires, but I don’t know if this bodgie is the cause of it.
The fag lighter fuse can be changed positions to make it switched with the ignition key, but that defeats the purpose of the modification, because it’s failure of an ignition switch contact that causes the blower motor to stop in the first place.

Tapping into the fag lighter makes the job much quicker, because there's no need to break into the steering column shrouds.
The old supply wire from the ignition switch to the blower motor gets used to operate the relay, and is usually still good for the low current to switch the relay coil.
Ideas here:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=16871

This creation from RichardW:

http://www.geocities.com/tricky992002/fanmod.xls

skysurfer1
Posts: 14
Joined: 05 Jan 2007, 10:51

Post by skysurfer1 » 22 Feb 2007, 18:35

Clogzz extra relay has fixed the heater fan problem on my May '97 Xantia 1.9TD SX with aircon.
I traced the problem as far as the feed to the fuse dieing when the fan was at high speed. The voltage to the fuse would drop to about 8V as the fan speed was increased then it would drop to nothing and the fan would stop. The rear window heater also stopped when the fan wasn't working. Both would usually (but not always) come back to life if the ignition was cycled off/on.
My Xantia wiring used the fuse numbers Haynes shows for '97 onwards but without the relay... :roll:
It can be done quite neatly if you have 2 male and 2 female 3/8" blade crimps and 4 female 1/4" blade crimps for the extra relay and a ring terminal crimp for the earth. The 3/8" fit both halves of the brown connector in the steering column. You need some plastic sheet to insulate between the two 3/8" female crimps or they will touch, powering the fan when the ignition is off :wink:

I'm not sure that I'm getting all the different speeds that I should get (only off/low/high - not really any mid speed) but otherwise it's fine :D

Alan