Dead key, 2005 Berlingo 1.9 DLX 600

[nginmu]

Friend has a 2005 Berlingo 1.9 DLX 600 in which the ignition key suddenly stopped working, with no lights or anything appearing upon turning the key. No activity from starter motor.

AA chap attended & determined that regardless of anything else, the starter motor itself was inoperative.

Starter motor was changed for a known good second hand unit, however on turning the ignition key there was still no response from anything at all.

He's now been told he might effect a fix by transplanting a key barrel and key from a donor vehicle.

I'm wondering what programming etc. might end up being involved here, also the possibility of having to change other parts of the electrical system (various mini-ecus etc)?

Any info gratefully received.

[GiveMeABreak]

Incorrect advice from the AA again.

No need to replace the transponder coil unless it is faulty - that has nothing to do with the security of the vehicle apart from sending the signal to and from the BSI for starting the vehicle.

You cannot replace the fob from another vehicle without also replacing the BSI and the engine ECU from the same donor vehicle. But you need to check other factors first before going down that route or it may introduce further complications. We need to ascertain the reason for the lack of lights on the dash.

First, if this is a remote fob, it may need resynchronising. Wait a few minutes, insert the key, turn the ignition on and hold the lock button in for 5 seconds, release and remove the key. Then insert the key and try to start. Ensure the fob battery is not depleted.

Even if de-synchronised, you should still get lights on the dash, so I suspect a power / earth / fuse issue at this point.

Can you describe in more detail what is happening when the key is turned to the ignition - do the ignition lights come on?
Have any of the ignition keys (including spares and the current key) been replaced?
Has any aftermarket equipment or accessories been fitted recently or radio / head unit replaced?
Check battery earthing cables and condition of terminals.

Pop up the VIN here or the vehicle registration and I'll advise of the fuses to check.

[nginmu]

Thanks for the help. VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]

Just come out from a hospital op myself so I'm trying to help my buddy somewhat remotely from the bedside. It'll probably be a few days before I can just hop in the car & drive down to see the vehicle in person, so I'll have to rely on getting him to check stuff himself & report back. He's not massively technically minded but able to follow basic stuff.

I'll give him a ring & ask him to check what you've posted above as far as possible.

[nginmu]

Ok quizzed Paul again on this.

Turns out there is a lot of mixed up info & parts involved.

When he first got the van, everything was fine and he had one ignition key which had a lock and an unlock button.

Subsequently, about 3 months ago, he lost his original key. He called in 'one of those key programming fellers' who provided him with a new key and 'programmed it to the van' - no further info available. The new key provided, has no lock / unlock buttons but otherwise started the van just fine.

This brings us to the recent issue whereby it seems, on turning the key (the 'new' replacement key), lights *did* in fact come on on the dash and a ticking / whirring noise was heard. However, no activity from the starter motor. Paul's slightly unwilling to agree that there was absolutely, categorically zero indication of activity from the starter motor. He would only say 'you could tell there was no guts at all and it wouldnt turn over'.

This is where AA guy turned up & diagnosed the starter motor.

The van was then passed to what sounds like a part time engineer who agreed to change the starter motor.

This chap did change the starter motor for a known good secondhand unit but apparrently to no avail.

So, he ordered a key barrel and matching key from a donor vehicle and fitted it. This apparrently also failed to effect a cure.

He then put the original ignition barrel, back on the vehicle. The current state seems to be that with the replacement non-lock-buttons key, the lights come on, there is a ticking noise, but no starter motor activity.

I'm waiting for a call from the engineer who's tried to effect a fix so far. I've heard vague rumblings that 'he had to drill something out to make it fit', sounds ominous..

Paul realised after having the replacement key produced & programmed, that in fact he hadn't lost the original key. He still has it. No idea if he's tried using it; will ask him & the engineer when I speak to them again

[GiveMeABreak]

Obvious Fuses to check:

BSI Fuses

F4 (switching module under the steering wheel (COM 2000) - clock - multifunction screen - audio system) - Ignore if clock / radio is working)
F14 (switching module under the steering wheel (COM 2000) - engine compartment fusebox panel - air bag and pre-tensioners control unit)

Maxi Fuses

Maxi Fuses MF4 & MF5 (Power to the BSI)

Earth Locations

Description Reference Battery Earth M000 Front Left Earths MC11 “ MC12 “ MC13 “ MC14 “ MC15 “ MC16 “ MC94 Front RH Side Earth MC20 Centre Console Earths MC40 “ MC41 “ MC42 “ MC59 Courtesy Light Earths MC43 “ MC44 Front LH Side Earth (Dashboard) MC45 Front RH Side Earth (Dashboard) MC50 Front RH Seat Crossmember Earths MC56 “ MC57 Left Rear Earths MC60 Specific to Hinged Doors MC61 Specific to Tailgate MC68 Right Rear Earths MC65 Specific to Hinged Doors MC66 Specific to Tailgate MC67 Tailgate Earth MC80 Engine Earth MM01

[nginmu]

Thanks.

Just had a call from the mechanic who's been looking at it. Turns out he's done the following:

- Tried to remove the existing starter motor but couldn't because of rounded, stuck etc bolts.
- Tried to remove the existing ignition barrel but realised he couldn't due to his lack of correct tools
- Unplugged the existing barrel wiring from the van
- 'hung' the donor ignition barrel loose from the wiring connectors

It appears as a result the situation is thus..

Turning the donor key in the 'hanging' donor barrel results in the dash lighting up as normal and the starter spinning.
The starter however is not engaging with the flywheel.

It seems all that's needed is a garage capable of changing the bad starter out for the good replacement unit, and the physical removal of the old barrel from the steering column & replacement with the donor barrel.

But from the comment in post 2 above - 'You cannot replace the fob from another vehicle without also replacing the BSI and the engine ECU from the same donor vehicle' - I'm wondering if what I'm being told is quite right?

[Hell Razor5543]

The three components are coded together (fobs, BSI and engine ECU), and can only work when each of the others is present. Consider this a security function. If you need to add a new key to the group you have to get a new, un-coded key (as well as the security card with the four digit code on it, and a proper diagnostics system that can access the relevant functions), and then go through the coding routine with ALL keys (any that are missed then get 'deleted' from memory; if they are needed to be added back in ALL keys have to be done again), and the new key is then written to, coding it to that vehicle.

[GiveMeABreak]

The transponder aerial is a separate item that surrounds the ignition barrel. This is the transponder aerial.

So I would check the wiring on your existing barrel as this would seem to be broken if it is not supplying power - or the wiring connector of the existing barrel / transponder is not making contact.

I also mentioned in my earlier post that the only reason to replace the transponder part is if it is not functional.

As for the turning of the starter - that will simply just spin and do nothing else, because the transponder chip in the fob of the donor car is not coded to the vehicle and the BSI is not authorising the vehicle to start. You cannot code another transponder in a fob to another vehicle.

The transponder part is replaceable as you can see it is a separate part. So all you need to do is use the donor transponder by separating it from the donor barrel and fitting it to your existing ignition barrel.

[myglaren]

Should it not light the immobiliser light?

[GiveMeABreak]

I think the issue from what I can ascertain Steve is that there is no power to the ignition barrel / transponder on the original kit. I mentioned earlier that simply an unrecognised transponder would not stop the dash / ignition lights or warning messages coming on and would display the immobiliser fault message as you say depending on model.

This can happen with people that attach a lot of other keys on their car key chain. The constant weight sloshing about over time weakens the barrel and can cause problems. Not saying that is the case here but evidently there is no power getting through.