it rains a lot here

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picassodad
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it rains a lot here

Post by picassodad » 08 Feb 2019, 15:36

P1010001.JPG
A real fun weekend coming up, see the pictures.

Please please please admin could you post parts diagrams and numbers for cylinder head stuff, you have the car details, the lads xsara picasso.

Need info on cam sprockets, cam shafts and the plastic cam covers.


diagrams and part numbers greatly appreciated.

I have a Woolies special, a dremel type drill, and some small grinding wheels, so using a protective "washer", will grind the remains of the oe bolt so the lid can be lifted off the remaining stub. I can remove the remains of the stub when the cover is out of the way, here's hoping.

Take note, rust proof your cam cover bolts, the bad one ( the other was "reduced" due to corrosion but came off/out ok ) has virtually corroded to nearly nothing, but still enough remains to hold the cam cover on and prevent it from being removed, with out some "action". The bad ones are at the rear of the exhaust cam cover, nice.
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: it rains a lot here

Post by GiveMeABreak » 08 Feb 2019, 17:18

You'll have to be a bit more specific - what operation are you attempting? Cam belt replacement? Cylinder Head? Camshaft Pulleys?

I will only put up specifics as it takes too much time to manually type this up.

picassodad
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Re: it rains a lot here

Post by picassodad » 11 Feb 2019, 13:50

Thanks gmab, cam covers now off, see pictures.

Saturday afternoon from about mid day to about 5pm and the bad bolt is nearly out and seen to "turn". I finished off on sunday morning and removed the cam covers, boy where they "stuck" on!!! The cam boxes are quite dirty inside, and the exhaust cover oil seperator seems to be full of crap and is much heavier than the inlet cam cover.

The woolies special "dremel copy" was tooooo long so I used the small short 12v "drill" one which worked fine and now after its second use in over 26 years of ownership, has paid for its self! =D>

The exhaust cam belt sprocket has a problem, but since some investigation, it seems the cam timing is all ok, unless the exhaust cam shaft has broken, or the cam shaft sprockets have sheared their "keys" and or the crank sprocket hub has done a similar. The likeleyhood of the cam belt going out of time and ending back up in time is more or less impossible. The heavy outer disc is allowed to move via the rubber spider within the cam sprocket recess. I wonder if the rubber spider/heavy outer disc unit is available as a seperate part??

The exhaust cam belt sprocket has a "vibration damper" built in. The heavy outer disc is bonded to the rubber " spider" which in turn is bonded to a thin walled "tube" which seems to be pressed onto a spigot of the exhaust sprocket. The exhaust sprocket its self is solid just like the inlet cam, so I cannot see the system being out of timing as all the timing pins align with their holes, and remains in tension.

for some reason the correct pictures are not on the camera card, will re take and post, but the vibration damper is not now bonded to the thin walled tube that is pressed onto the exhaust cam sprocket, but as said the exhaust cam sprocket is otherwise solid similar to the inlet cam sprocket, so no mangled valves we hope.

This after noon the relevent wires to the cam sensor ( some wires also go to the egr and throttle position sensor as well, in common ) and crank sensor will be checked from the sensors to the ecu, just in case/to illiminate a possible make and break or broken wire.

The cranks sensor seemed to work ok on the bench, continuity and a resistance of 472 ohms ( intermotor recon 400 ohms, so unit outside the 10% ) and outputs a signal when a metal object is swipped past the end, and the cam sensor ( hall effect, so no resistance check ) looks old and has some staining where it fits into the cam area, but one of the pins is exuding oil!! which may/will have made its way thru the unit from inside the engine. Oil ( dirty ) and electronics wont really mix very well??

The engine will be turned to allow a spanner to be fitted on the exhaust cam flats so we can undo the ex cam sprocket "bolt" and remove the bad sprocket.

Please could admin post exploded views of the parts diagram along with part numbers for the cam belt area, the cam sprockets and cylinder head please.

Our nearest Citroen dealer is some 45 miles away in Llangefni.

All help greatly appreciated.
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Last edited by picassodad on 12 Feb 2019, 10:37, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: it rains a lot here

Post by GiveMeABreak » 11 Feb 2019, 14:32

I'm still not 100% sure what you want - probably terminology, but if these are the parts diagrams, let me know which item numbers on either Diagram A, B or C and I'll be able to supply the part numbers for you.

Click / Tap Diagrams to Zoom
Diag ADiag BDiag C
Pic A.PNG
Pic B.PNG
Pic 3.PNG

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Re: it rains a lot here

Post by TheOtherPablo » 11 Feb 2019, 17:49

Thanks for the help.

If possible could you please get:
Cam shafts exploded view - Exhaust Cam shaft sprocket Part number 5

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Re: it rains a lot here

Post by GiveMeABreak » 11 Feb 2019, 19:03

Ok, so item 5 in the middle diagram of the table above in my last post (Diagram 'B') is the Engine Camshaft Gear and is part number: 0805J9 and is £103.22 new from Citroen inc. VAT.

Here's some data on the camshafts:
Pic Cam A.PNG
Identifying Camshafts
The camshafts are identified by the following references:
  • Paint rings
  • Marking stamped into the end of the camshaft (timing side)
(1) Induction camshaft.
(2) Exhaust camshaft.
" a" Paint rings: Repair reference.
" h" Target of the camshaft position sensor.
EW7J4 (A) engineInduction camshaftExhaust camshaft
Marking in "k"96 330 553 9996 330 554 99
Valve lift marking (at "j")D 1269D 5016
Paint ringsBlue (at "c")Blue (at "g")
Pic Cam B.PNG
Data
EW7J4 (A) and EW10J4 (B) enginesNominal dimensionRepair size
Ø D28 (-0,020 ; -0,041) mm28,5 (-0,020 ; -0,041) mm
Ø E28,5 (-0,020 ; -0,041) mm29 (-0,020 ; -0,041) mm
Ø F29 (-0,020 ; -0,041) mm29,5 (-0,020 ; -0,041) mm
Ø G29,5 (-0,020 ; -0,041) mm30 (-0,020 ; -0,041) mm
Ø H30 (-0,020 ; -0,041) mm30,5 (-0,020 ; -0,041) mm
Pic Cam F.PNG
Pic Cam F.PNG (65.52 KiB) Viewed 137 times

Cam

Height H = Cam lift.
EngineInlet camExhaust cam
EW7J4H = 8,5 mmH = 8,2 mm
Pic Cam C.PNG
Pic Cam C.PNG (72.07 KiB) Viewed 137 times
Pic Cam E.PNG
Pic Cam E.PNG (111.79 KiB) Viewed 137 times
Identification of the Camshaft Pulleys

Inlet Camshaft Hub
EngineMarking in "l"Identification Stamp
EW7J46At "n" and "p"
Exhaust camshaft hub
EngineMarking in "u"
EW7J4A

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Re: it rains a lot here

Post by picassodad » 12 Feb 2019, 10:42

Wow thanks gmab, very helpfull, will study later today when i get home.

We broke into the engine loom and tested the cam and crank sensor wires from the ecu plugs to the cam sensor terminal. The "Hall effect" output wire seems to have a varying resistence when "wiggled", but i have made better multimeter leads for this afternoons checking. Interstingly the crank sensor resistence was 472 ohms when the unit was bench tested but now fitted back into the engine has dropped to 440 ohms, maybe its a bit faulty inside the unit??

please see the pictures of the exhaust damper, where the bonding between the rubber star and thin walled tube is no longer.

This is a one piece new part as per parts diagram, but will not stop the engine from running for test.

The haynes manual wiring diagram has the wrong colour wires compared to the car, great, thanks haynes, a real confidence boost.

I am so so sorry to hassle but please please please coul;d admin post the wiring diagram for the engine loom, of interest are the wires from the ecu to the cam sensor, crank sensor and the egr and throttle position sensor, as the last 2 mentioned have wires in common with the cam sensor.

All help is greatly greatly appreciated, thanks.
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Re: it rains a lot here

Post by Hell Razor5543 » 12 Feb 2019, 12:38

Haynes are know to be the publishers of BoL (Book of Lies)! It is not unknown for them to copy and paste information between different Mks of cars without checking if the information is still valid. For example, if you have to replace any lightbulbs on a Mk1 Xantia instrument panel you will have to remove the steering wheel, but this is not the case with the Mk2. However, Haynes says it is.

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Re: it rains a lot here

Post by GiveMeABreak » 12 Feb 2019, 13:17

Here's the Injection System Diagram. I've included the main component key below - any other codes, use the Electrical wiring codes on the wiki here:

https://frenchcarforum.co.uk/wiki/Elect ... ring_Codes
Hardware
1320: Engine ECU
1240: Induction Air Temperature Sensor
1215: Canister Discharge Electrovalve
1316: Throttle Position Sensor
1351: Downstream Oxygen Sensor
1225: Idling Regulation Stepper Motor
1253: All or Nothing Solenoid Valve (EGR)
1312: Inlet air Pressure Sensor
1313: Engine Speed Sensor
1115: Cylinder / Reference Sensor
1350: Upstream Oxygen Sensor

Wiring

Here are the wiring codes for a few of the components you referred to:
pic 1115.PNG
pic 1115.PNG (5.51 KiB) Viewed 96 times
Pic 1253.PNG
Pic 1253.PNG (8.19 KiB) Viewed 96 times
PinWire CodeColour
11133: Camshaft + SignalRed
21131: Camshaft / SignalGreen
3M1115: EarthGreen / Yellow
PinWire CodeColour
A1373: Linear EGR Electrovalve ControlGrey
BM1253: Exhaust Gas Recycling Flap ControlGreen / Yellow
C1346: Exhaust Gas Recycling Solenoid Valve Repeat Sensor SignalRed
D1299: "Bypass" Butterfly Solenoid Valve ControlWhite
E1287: Fuel Additive Pump Temperature Sending UnitGreen
pic 1313.PNG
pic 1313.PNG (6.09 KiB) Viewed 96 times
Pic 1316.PNG
Pic 1316.PNG (6.03 KiB) Viewed 96 times
PinWire CodeColour
1132: Potential 2.5 volts (engine speed sensor)Green /Red
2133: "EGR" repeat information ARed / Grey
1D132Blue / Red
PinWire CodeColour
1M1316: "EGR" motor A- controlGreen / Yellow
21352: Camshaft Sensor Power SupplyGreen
31351: Lambda Sensor Heating Power SupplyYellow

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Re: it rains a lot here

Post by picassodad » 12 Feb 2019, 13:26

Wow again, thank you so much
will print off an study when i get home.

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Re: it rains a lot here

Post by picassodad » 15 Feb 2019, 13:57

Sit rep, i removed all the connections on the main under bonnet loom from their plugs, apart from the thickish bunch going off to the "fuel" area and the thinner on going to the starter/oil pressure switch area.

This has allowed good access to all the wires in the main bunch for testing. After making some better connection wires from the various plugs to the dmm, there does not seem to be any problem with the crank sensor wires, and cam sesnor wires from the ecu plugs to their respective connection plugs.

I will be "inserting" some test point wires close to the ecu plugs for scope examination when the time comes, probably saturday afternoon, then going from there.

I can crank the engine ( hot wires from external battery to earth and main starter lead, and solenoid energiser wire only ) with the ecu etc disconnected, so it will not know. The aux drive belt is off so no alternator involved. The scope will show hopefully power to the cam sensor hall effect devise, and a loss of cam hall signal on the green wire, here's hoping its just that.

will report back with findings.

The local motor factor can supply new crank sensor ( about £12 plus vat ) and cam sensor ( about £26 plus vat ) but they will take a few days to arrive. I dont want to get new ones unless i know for certain that the present sensors are "down", we don't have a plentyful supply of money.

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Re: it rains a lot here

Post by picassodad » 15 Feb 2019, 14:02

I have seen the wiki component list but how do i access the information about the subject if interest?? i haqve tried clicking on the subject but nothing is displayed??

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Re: it rains a lot here

Post by GiveMeABreak » 15 Feb 2019, 14:23

There's nothing to download - it's reference material for identifying most of the components on PSA circuit diagrams.

It's simply organised in sections by component code numbers in ascending order.

Click the blue links to go to the various sections and use your browser's back function to return to the previous page. I put the reference there to save me repetitively having to type up codes in various posts - now I tend to refer people to the Wiki to look them up themselves.

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Re: it rains a lot here

Post by picassodad » 15 Feb 2019, 15:39

Cool, thanks mark, your help greatly appreciated.

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Re: it rains a lot here

Post by picassodad » 19 Feb 2019, 11:02

In the process of making a spanner for cam shaft locking ( 23mm af ?? ) the exhaust cam shaft so I can remove the problematic cam shaft sprocket. I will report back.