Citroen Berlingo 1,4 1999 Wont Start

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FlyingKipper
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Citroen Berlingo 1,4 1999 Wont Start

Post by FlyingKipper » 06 Dec 2018, 10:44

Hi,

I am new to the forum here and looking for some help to get my daughters old Berlingo running. The car has covered 60k miles and has a full service history as it was previously owned by the local council. We bought it at the beginning of the year. The problem started several months ago when it started to lose power and eventually would not start. It has been in 2 garages the first a non franchised delaer and the second a Peugot / Citroen dealer. Both had problems to communicate with the ECU to diagnose the problem and advised it was not economical to fix. I dragged it 500 miles home to my own garage and started the process to diagnose the fault.

So far I have done the following:

Changed the TPS and stepper motor
Changed the ECU with known good replacement - still get ecu comms failure. Dont have and ECU warning lamp on dash. Found out that SAGEM ECU is pre OBD. What diagnostic tool can be used??
Compression pressure 7 BAR on all cylinders. Is this OK? I would expect approx 10 Bar as it is 10:1 ratio.
Cylinder head off. Head gasket OK. Noticed kiss marks on all pistons where exhaust valves have touched.
Checked timing and out by approx 20 degrees. ( Locked camshaft , removed cam belt , rotated engine approx 20 degs to get hole in flywheel to line up)
Found crank pulley bolt loose and woodruff key sheared and pully had slipped.
Repaired pulley, new woodruff key, crank seal,
Replaced cam belt and water pump and tensioner after aligning the timing holes.
Repalced alternator and power steering pump belts
Overhauled cylinder head with new seals and ground in valves
Replaced head gasket, new head bolts.
Checked all sensors on inlet manifold / throttle housing resistance values etc. All appear ok.
Checked injectors using separate 12VDC supply to each one and all are firing correctly.
New air filter engine oil coolant
Replace all parts and try to start.
Nothing. Engine turns over but will not fire. No ECU warning lamps

So any ideas?
Is the timing still out. I have checked it twice that the holes line up so I am confident it is correct as it had not slipped much.
Crankshaft sensor??
Cam sensor?
How to read fault codes on ECU pre OBD??
HELP Running out of ideas and patience .

Rgds George

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Citroen Berlingo 1,4 1999 Wont Start

Post by GiveMeABreak » 06 Dec 2018, 11:49

Hi George - that's a comprehensive list of things you have done. Do you have the VIN please (automatically masked) so we can determine exact specs and options as there are quite a few variants.

Yes given the age it will be pre-OBD. Depending on actual engine, one may only get emissions faults logged and displayed, but this was before the full OBDII compliance that came in a few years later. Again, depending on exact model, you may have the old Lucas system, which has a generic injection ECU and is pretty basic unfortunately.

We may have a better idea once you get the VIN.

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Re: Citroen Berlingo 1,4 1999 Wont Start

Post by FlyingKipper » 06 Dec 2018, 14:48

Hi,

Thanks for quick reply it is registered in Norway and has chassis no VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff] and motor code KFX 1,4 litre petrol. it has the sagem sl96 / 21649800-5 9015237890. I replaced it with a cracked unit from Cartech in UK with no luck. So I have 2 good ECU. I really need to be able to read the ECU to see what to do next. It may be that I have missed something in the rebuild yesterday so will check again the sparks and fuel etc. I also have spare TPS and servo unit. I have connected them loose to the car and see if I move the TPS the servo reacts so the closed loop is working.

I have also changed the Lambda sond. Thinking of checking the crank sensor and cam sensor next. Any tips on how to look at the signals. I have Fluke multimeter and can also get hands on a Fluke scopemeter..

Thanks again

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Re: Citroen Berlingo 1,4 1999 Wont Start

Post by GiveMeABreak » 06 Dec 2018, 16:06

Ok, so you have the 1.4i 75 TU3JP Petrol Engine.

The injection ECU system on this is a SAGEM as you have stated.

You say that you have a 'cracked' ECU - but that does not follow that it will allow the car to be started. It may just mean that it has been unlocked or the code has been cleared ready for re-programming.

For your vehicle, in order for the vehicle to start the transponder chip must be recognised and the engine ECU unlocked - if not it will continue to rotate without starting. These are the scenarios:

Unlocking the engine management ECU
  • Switch the ignition to the "ignition +" position:
  • The transponder warning lamp ( 4) lights
  • The system reads the code from the transponder in the key
Code recognized with ECU unlocked:
  • The transponder warning lamp ( 4) goes out
  • The engine can be started
Code recognized with ECU locked:
  • The ECU informs the control module of its state
  • The control module sends the unlocking command to the ECU
  • The ECU unlocks
  • The ECM replies by relating its new state
  • The transponder warning lamp ( 4) goes out
  • The engine can be started
Code not recognised:
  • The transponder warning lamp ( 4) flashes
  • The engine cannot be started
So can you confirm whether you are getting the transponder warning lamp flashing?

Components:
Berlingo Immob.PNG
(2) Centralised diagnostic socket .
(4) Transponder warning lamp (in the instrument panel).
(5) Transponder analogue module.
(6) Integrated transponder.
(7) Driver’s door switch.
(8) injection ECU (petrol).
(9) diesel injection pump.
(10) Injection double relay (supply to the ECM).
(8221) Control module
The items with strikethrough are for the Diesel engine so can be ignored.

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Re: Citroen Berlingo 1,4 1999 Wont Start

Post by FlyingKipper » 06 Dec 2018, 20:11

Hi Marc, The ECU is unlocked so immobiliser is bypassed. It was sold as PLUG and PLAY In any case with either of the ECU I have all seems normal. The transponder warning light is NOT flashing. When I turn over the engine all warning lamps are extinguished so all looks normal. It seems like it is trying to start as I get an occasional cough and then nothing.

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myglaren
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Re: Citroen Berlingo 1,4 1999 Wont Start

Post by myglaren » 06 Dec 2018, 20:25

Could the injectors have been inadvertently damaged during testing?

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Re: Citroen Berlingo 1,4 1999 Wont Start

Post by FlyingKipper » 06 Dec 2018, 20:37

Hi,

I have just taken out the crank sensor and have a good view of the flywheel. I think the timing is wrong. According to Haynes manual you use a M6 x 90mm bolt to lock the position. I used a large nail to find the correct spot as I thought it entered a hole in the fly wheel. Now I look I can see it only enters the teeth on the gear ring on the flywheel. So question now is how do I find the correct position of the flywheel in relation to the camshaft..

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Re: Citroen Berlingo 1,4 1999 Wont Start

Post by FlyingKipper » 06 Dec 2018, 22:59

So now I know how to find the timing on a Berlingo. Forget the Haynes manual. On the flywheel bellhousing beside the crank sensor there is a 20mm diameter hole that allows you to look into the flywheel. Rotate the crank until you see a slot in the flywheel and position this mid in the hole. Lock the camshaft with the 10 mm locking pin. Cylinder 1 probably should be at TDC. I was lucky in that the timing was not far out probablt about 20 degrees. Then reset the cam belt tension etc. Start up and broom broom

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Re: Citroen Berlingo 1,4 1999 Wont Start

Post by GiveMeABreak » 07 Dec 2018, 01:22

I think they say with the vehicle lifted off the ground to put it in 5th gear and rotate until you find the spot.